第17章

ThebillreadinhisplacebythesenatorfromGeorgiaonthe25thofJune，andreferredtotheCommitteeonTerritories，containedthesamesectionwordforword。Boththesebillswereunderconsiderationattheconferencereferredto；but，sir，whenthesenatorfromIllinoisreportedtheToombsbilltotheSenatewithamendments，thenextmorning，itdidnotcontainthatportionofthethirdsectionwhichindicatedtotheConventionthattheconstitutionshouldbeapprovedbythepeople。Thewords"andratifiedbythepeopleattheelectionfortheadoptionoftheconstitution"hadbeenstrickenout。’"

Now，thesethingsTrumbullsayswerestatedbyBiglerupontheflooroftheSenateoncertaindays，andthattheyarerecordedintheCongressionalGlobeoncertainpages。DoesJudgeDouglassaythisisaforgery？DoeshesaythereisnosuchthingintheCongressionalGlobe？WhatdoeshemeanwhenhesaysJudgeTrumbullforgeshisevidencefrombeginningtoend？SoagainhesaysinanotherplacethatJudgeDouglas，inhisspeech，December9，1857(CongressionalGlobe，partI。，page15)，stated：

"ThatduringthelastsessionofCongress，I(Mr。Douglas]reportedabillfromtheCommitteeonTerritories，toauthorizethepeopleofKansastoassembleandformaconstitutionforthemselves。

SubsequentlythesenatorfromGeorgia[Mr。Toombs]broughtforwardasubstituteformybill，which，afterhavingbeenmodifiedbyhimandmyselfinconsultation，waspassedbytheSenate。"

Now，TrumbullsaysthisisaquotationfromaspeechofDouglas，andisrecordedintheCongressionalGlobe。Isitaforgery？Isitthereornot？Itmaynotbethere，butIwanttheJudgetotakethesepiecesofevidence，anddistinctlysaytheyareforgeriesifhedaredoit。

[Avoice："Hewill。"]

Well，sir，youhadbetternotcommithim。Hegivesotherquotations，——anotherfromJudgeDouglas。Hesays：

"Iwillaskthesenatortoshowmeanintimation，fromanyonememberoftheSenate，inthewholedebateontheToombsbill，andintheUnion，fromanyquarter，thattheconstitutionwasnottobesubmittedtothepeople。Iwillventuretosaythatonallsidesofthechamberitwassounderstoodatthetime。Iftheopponentsofthebillhadunderstooditwasnot，theywouldhavemadethepointonit；andiftheyhadmadeit，weshouldcertainlyhaveyieldedtoit，andputintheclause。ThatisadiscoverymadesincethePresidentfoundoutthatitwasnotsafetotakeitforgrantedthatthatwouldbedone，whichoughtinfairnesstohavebeendone。"

JudgeTrumbullsaysDouglasmadethatspeech，anditisrecorded。

DoesJudgeDouglassayitisaforgery，andwasnottrue？Trumbullsayssomewhere，andIproposetoskipit，butitwillbefoundbyanyonewhowillreadthisdebate，thathediddistinctlybringittothenoticeofthosewhowereengineeringthebill，thatitlackedthatprovision；andthenhegoesontogiveanotherquotationfromJudgeDouglas，whereJudgeTrumbullusesthislanguage：

"JudgeDouglas，however，onthesamedayandinthesamedebate，probablyrecollectingorbeingremindedofthefactthatIhadobjectedtotheToombsbillwhenpendingthatitdidnotprovideforasubmissionoftheconstitutiontothepeople，madeanotherstatement，whichistobefoundinthesamevolumeoftheGlobe，page22，inwhichhesays：

’Thatthebillwassilentonthissubjectwastrue，andmyattentionwascalledtothataboutthetimeitwaspassed；andItookthefairconstructiontobe，thatpowersnotdelegatedwerereserved，andthatofcoursetheconstitutionwouldbesubmittedtothepeople。’

"Whetherthisstatementisconsistentwiththestatementjustbeforemade，thathadthepointbeenmadeitwouldhavebeenyieldedto，orthatitwasanewdiscovery，youwilldetermine。"

SoIsay。IdonotknowwhetherJudgeDouglaswilldisputethis，andyetmaintainhispositionthatTrumbull’sevidence"wasforgedfrombeginningtoend。"IwillremarkthatIhavenotgottheseCongressionalGlobeswithme。Theyarelargebooks，anddifficulttocarryabout，andifJudgeDouglasshallsaythatonthesepointswhereTrumbullhasquotedfromthemtherearenosuchpassagesthere，Ishallnotbeabletoprovetheyarethereuponthisoccasion，butI

willhaveanotherchance。Wheneverhepointsouttheforgeryandsays，"IdeclarethatthisparticularthingwhichTrumbullhasutteredisnottobefoundwherehesaysitis，"thenmyattentionwillbedrawntothat，andIwillarmmyselfforthecontest，statingnowthatIhavenottheslightestdoubtonearththatIwillfindeveryquotationjustwhereTrumbullsaysitis。Thenthequestionis，HowcanDouglascallthataforgery？Howcanhemakeoutthatitisaforgery？Whatisaforgery？Itisthebringingforwardsomethinginwritingorinprintpurportingtobeofcertaineffectwhenitisaltogetheruntrue。IfyoucomeforwardwithmynoteforonehundreddollarswhenIhavenevergivensuchanote，thereisaforgery。IfyoucomeforwardwithaletterpurportingtobewrittenbymewhichIneverwrote，thereisanotherforgery。Ifyouproduceanythinginwritingorinprintsayingitissoandso，thedocumentnotbeinggenuine，aforgeryhasbeencommitted。Howdoyoumakethisforgerywheneverypieceoftheevidenceisgenuine？IfJudgeDouglasdoessaythesedocumentsandquotationsarefalseandforged，hehasafullrighttodoso；butuntilhedoesitspecifically，wedon’tknowhowtogetathim。Ifhedoessaytheyarefalseandforged，Iwillthenlookfurtherintoit，andpresumeIcanprocurethecertificatesoftheproperofficersthattheyaregenuinecopies。

IhavenodoubteachoftheseextractswillbefoundexactlywhereTrumbullsaysitis。ThenIleaveittoyouifJudgeDouglas，inmakinghissweepingchargethatJudgeTrumbull’sevidenceisforgedfrombeginningtoend，atallmeetsthecase，——ifthatisthewaytogetatthefacts。Irepeatagain，ifhewillpointoutwhichoneisaforgery，Iwillcarefullyexamineit，andifitprovesthatanyoneofthemisreallyaforgery，itwillnotbemewhowillholdtoitanylonger。IhavealwayswantedtodealwitheveryoneImeetcandidlyandhonestly。IfIhavemadeanyassertionnotwarrantedbyfacts，anditispointedouttome，Iwillwithdrawitcheerfully。

ButIdonotchoosetoseeJudgeTrumbullcalumniated，andtheevidencehehasbroughtforwardbrandedingeneralterms"aforgeryfrombeginningtoend。"Thisisnotthelegalwayofmeetingacharge，andIsubmitittoallintelligentpersons，bothfriendsofJudgeDouglasandofmyself，whetheritis。

ThepointuponJudgeDouglasisthis：Thebillthatwentintohishandshadtheprovisioninitforasubmissionoftheconstitutiontothepeople；andIsayitslanguageamountstoanexpressprovisionforasubmission，andthathetooktheprovisionout。Hesaysitwasknownthatthebillwassilentinthisparticular；butIsay，JudgeDouglas，itwasnotsilentwhenyougotit。Itwasvocalwiththedeclaration，whenyougotit，forasubmissionoftheconstitutiontothepeople。Andnow，mydirectquestiontoJudgeDouglasis，toanswerwhy，ifhedeemedthebillsilentonthispoint，hefounditnecessarytostrikeoutthoseparticularharmlesswords。Ifhehadfoundthebillsilentandwithoutthisprovision，hemightsaywhathedoesnow。Ifhesupposesitwasimpliedthattheconstitutionwouldbesubmittedtoavoteofthepeople，howcouldthesetwolinessoencumberthestatuteastomakeitnecessarytostrikethemout？

Howcouldheinferthatasubmissionwasstillimplied，afteritsexpressprovisionhadbeenstrickenfromthebill？Ifindthebillvocalwiththeprovision，whilehesilencedit。Hetookitout，andalthoughhetookouttheotherprovisionpreventingasubmissiontoavoteofthepeople，Iask，Whydidyoufirstputitin？Iaskhimwhetherhetooktheoriginalprovisionout，whichTrumbullallegeswasinthebill。Ifheadmitsthathedidtakeit，Iaskhimwhathediditfor。Itlookstousasifhehadalteredthebill。Ifitlooksdifferentlytohim，——ifhehasadifferentreasonforhisactionfromtheoneweassignhim——hecantellit。Iinsistuponknowingwhyhemadethebillsilentuponthatpointwhenitwasvocalbeforeheputhishandsuponit。

Iwastold，beforemylastparagraph，thatmytimewaswithinthreeminutesofbeingout。Ipresumeitisexpirednow；Ithereforeclose。

Mr。LINCOLN’SREJOINDER。

FELLOW—CITIZENS：Itfollowsasamatterofcoursethatahalf—houranswertoaspeechofanhourandahalfcanbebutaveryhurriedone。IshallonlybeabletotouchuponafewofthepointssuggestedbyJudgeDouglas，andgivethemabriefattention，whileI

shallhavetototallyomitothersforthewantoftime。

JudgeDouglashassaidtoyouthathehasnotbeenabletogetfrommeananswertothequestionwhetherIaminfavorofnegrocitizenship。SofarasIknowtheJudgeneveraskedmethequestionbefore。Heshallhavenooccasiontoeveraskitagain，forItellhimveryfranklythatIamnotinfavorofnegrocitizenship。Thisfurnishesmeanoccasionforsayingafewwordsuponthesubject。I

mentionedinacertainspeechofmine，whichhasbeenprinted，thattheSupremeCourthaddecidedthatanegrocouldnotpossiblybemadeacitizen；andwithoutsayingwhatwasmygroundofcomplaintinregardtothat，orwhetherIhadanygroundofcomplaint，JudgeDouglashasfromthatthingmanufacturednearlyeverythingthatheeversaysaboutmydispositiontoproduceanequalitybetweenthenegroesandthewhitepeople。Ifanyonewillreadmyspeech，hewillfindImentionedthatasoneofthepointsdecidedinthecourseoftheSupremeCourtopinions，butIdidnotstatewhatobjectionI

hadtoit。ButJudgeDouglastellsthepeoplewhatmyobjectionwaswhenIdidnottellthemmyself。Now，myopinionisthatthedifferentStateshavethepowertomakeanegroacitizenundertheConstitutionoftheUnitedStatesiftheychoose。TheDredScottdecisiondecidesthattheyhavenotthatpower。IftheStateofIllinoishadthatpower，Ishouldbeopposedtotheexerciseofit。

ThatisallIhavetosayaboutit。

JudgeDouglashastoldmethatheheardmyspeechesnorthandmyspeechessouth；thathehadheardmeatOttawaandatFreeportinthenorthandrecentlyatJonesborointhesouth，andtherewasaverydifferentcastofsentimentinthespeechesmadeatthedifferentpoints。IwillnotchargeuponJudgeDouglasthathewilfullymisrepresentsme，butIcalluponeveryfair—mindedmantotakethesespeechesandreadthem，andIdarehimtopointoutanydifferencebetweenmyspeechesnorthandsouth。WhileIamhereperhapsIoughttosayaword，ifIhavethetime，inregardtothelatterportionoftheJudge’sspeech，whichwasasortofdeclamationinreferencetomyhavingsaidIentertainedthebeliefthatthisgovernmentwouldnotendurehalfslaveandhalffree。Ihavesaidso，andIdidnotsayitwithoutwhatseemedtometobegoodreasons。ItperhapswouldrequiremoretimethanIhavenowtosetforththesereasonsindetail；butletmeaskyouafewquestions。Haveweeverhadanypeaceonthisslaveryquestion？Whenarewetohavepeaceuponit，ifitiskeptinthepositionitnowoccupies？Howareweevertohavepeaceuponit？Thatisanimportantquestion。Tobesure，ifwewillallstop，andallowJudgeDouglasandhisfriendstomarchonintheirpresentcareeruntiltheyplanttheinstitutionalloverthenation，hereandwhereverelseourflagwaves，andweacquiesceinit，therewillbepeace。ButletmeaskJudgeDouglashowheisgoingtogetthepeopletodothat？Theyhavebeenwranglingoverthisquestionforatleastfortyyears。ThiswasthecauseoftheagitationresultingintheMissouriCompromise；thisproducedthetroublesattheannexationofTexas，intheacquisitionoftheterritoryacquiredintheMexicanWar。Again，thiswasthetroublewhichwasquietedbytheCompromiseof1850，whenitwassettled"forever"asboththegreatpoliticalpartiesdeclaredintheirNationalConventions。That"forever"turnedouttobejustfouryears，whenJudgeDouglashimselfreopenedit。Whenisitlikelytocometoanend？HeintroducedtheNebraskaBillin1854toputanotherendtotheslaveryagitation。Hepromisedthatitwouldfinishitallupimmediately，andhehasnevermadeaspeechsince，untilhegotintoaquarrelwiththePresidentabouttheLecomptonConstitution，inwhichhehasnotdeclaredthatwearejustattheendoftheslaveryagitation。Butinonespeech，Ithinklastwinter，hedidsaythathedidn’tquiteseewhentheendoftheslaveryagitationwouldcome。NowhetellsusagainthatitisalloverandthepeopleofKansashavevoteddowntheLecomptonConstitution。Howisitover？Thatwasonlyoneoftheattemptsatputtinganendtotheslaveryagitation——oneofthese"finalsettlements。"IsKansasintheUnion？Hassheformedaconstitutionthatsheislikelytocomeinunder？IsnottheslaveryagitationstillanopenquestioninthatTerritory？Hasthevotingdownofthatconstitutionputanendtoallthetrouble？Isthatmorelikelytosettleitthaneveryoneofthesepreviousattemptstosettletheslaveryagitation？Now，atthisdayinthehistoryoftheworldwecannomoreforetellwheretheendofthisslaveryagitationwillbethanwecanseetheendoftheworlditself。TheNebraska—KansasBillwasintroducedfouryearsandahalfago，andiftheagitationisevertocometoanendwemaysaywearefouryearsandahalfnearertheend。So，too，wecansaywearefouryearsandahalfnearertheendoftheworld，andwecanjustasclearlyseetheendoftheworldaswecanseetheendofthisagitation。TheKansassettlementdidnotconcludeit。IfKansasshouldsinkto—day，andleaveagreatvacantspaceintheearth’ssurface，thisvexedquestionwouldstillbeamongus。Isay，then，thereisnowayofputtinganendtotheslaveryagitationamongstusbuttoputitbackuponthebasiswhereourfathersplacedit；nowaybuttokeepitoutofournewTerritories，——torestrictitforevertotheoldStateswhereitnowexists。Thenthepublicmindwillrestinthebeliefthatitisinthecourseofultimateextinction。Thatisonewayofputtinganendtotheslaveryagitation。

TheotherwayisforustosurrenderandletJudgeDouglasandhisfriendshavetheirwayandplantslaveryoveralltheStates；ceasespeakingofitasinanywayawrong；regardslaveryasoneofthecommonmattersofproperty，andspeakofnegroesaswedoofourhorsesandcattle。Butwhileitdrivesoninitsstateofprogressasitisnowdriving，andasithasdrivenforthelastfiveyears，I

haveventuredtheopinion，andIsayto—day，thatwewillhavenoendtotheslaveryagitationuntilittakesoneturnortheother。Idonotmeanthatwhenittakesaturntowardultimateextinctionitwillbeinaday，norinayear，norintwoyears。Idonotsupposethatinthemostpeacefulwayultimateextinctionwouldoccurinlessthanahundredyearsatleast；butthatitwilloccurinthebestwayforbothraces，inGod’sowngoodtime，Ihavenodoubt。But，myfriends，IhaveusedupmoreofmytimethanIintendedonthispoint。

Now，inregardtothismatteraboutTrumbullandmyselfhavingmadeabargaintosellouttheentireWhigandDemocraticpartiesin1854：

JudgeDouglasbringsforwardnoevidencetosustainhischarge，exceptthespeechMathenyissaidtohavemadein1856，inwhichhetoldacock—and—bullstoryofthatsort，uponthesamemoralprinciplesthatJudgeDouglastellsithereto—day。Thisisthesimpletruth。Idonotcaregreatlyforthestory，butthisisthetruthofit：andIhavetwicetoldJudgeDouglastohisfacethatfrombeginningtoendthereisnotonewordoftruthinit。Ihavecalleduponhimfortheproof，andhedoesnotatallmeetmeasTrumbullmethimuponthatofwhichwewerejusttalking，byproducingtherecord。Hedidn’tbringtherecordbecausetherewasnorecordforhimtobring。WhenheasksifIamreadytoindorseTrumbull’sveracityafterhehasbrokenabargainwithme，IreplythatifTrumbullhadbrokenabargainwithmeIwouldnotbelikelytoindorsehisveracity；butIamreadytoindorsehisveracitybecauseneitherinthatthing，norinanyother，inalltheyearsthatIhaveknownLymanTrumbull，haveIknownhimtofailofhiswordortellafalsehoodlargeorsmall。ItisforthatreasonthatIindorseLymanTrumbull。

[Mr。JAMESBROWN(Douglaspostmaster)："WhatdoesFord’sHistorysayabouthim？"]

SomegentlemanasksmewhatFord’sHistorysaysabouthim。MyownrecollectionisthatFordspeaksofTrumbullinverydisrespectfultermsinseveralportionsofhisbook，andthathetalksagreatdealworseofJudgeDouglas。Ireferyou，sir，totheHistoryforexamination。

JudgeDouglascomplainsatconsiderablelengthaboutadispositiononthepartofTrumbullandmyselftoattackhimpersonally。Iwanttoattendtothatsuggestionamoment。Idon’twanttobeunjustlyaccusedofdealingilliberallyorunfairlywithanadversary，eitherincourtorinapoliticalcanvassoranywhereelse。IwoulddespisemyselfifIsupposedmyselfreadytodeallessliberallywithanadversarythanIwaswillingtobetreatedmyself。JudgeDouglasinageneralway，withoutputtingitinadirectshape，revivestheoldchargeagainstmeinreferencetotheMexicanWar。Hedoesnottaketheresponsibilityofputtingitinaverydefiniteform，butmakesageneralreferencetoit。Thatchargeismorethantenyearsold。HecomplainsofTrumbullandmyselfbecausehesayswebringchargesagainsthimoneortwoyearsold。Heknows，too，thatinregardtotheMexicanWarstorythemorerespectablepapersofhisownpartythroughouttheStatehavebeencompelledtotakeitbackandacknowledgethatitwasalie。

[HereMr。LINCOLNturnedtothecrowdontheplatform，and，selectingHON。ORLANDOB。FICKLIN，ledhimforwardandsaid：]

IdonotmeantodoanythingwithMr。FICKLINexcepttopresenthisfaceandtellyouthathepersonal1yknowsittobealie！HewasamemberofCongressattheonlytimeIwasinCongress，and[FICKLIN]

knowsthatwhenevertherewasanattempttoprocureavoteofminewhichwouldindorsetheoriginandjusticeofthewar，Irefusedtogivesuchindorsementandvotedagainstit；butInevervotedagainstthesuppliesforthearmy，andheknows，aswellasJudgeDouglas，thatwheneveradollarwasaskedbywayofcompensationorotherwiseforthebenefitofthesoldiersIgaveallthevotesthatFICKLINorDouglasdid，andperhapsmore。

[Mr。FICKLIN：Myfriends，Iwishtosaythisinreferencetothematter：Mr。LincolnandmyselfarejustasgoodpersonalfriendsasJudgeDouglasandmyself。InreferencetothisMexicanWar，myrecollectionisthatwhenAshmun’sresolution[amendment]wasofferedbyMr。AshmunofMassachusetts，inwhichhedeclaredthattheMexicanWarwasunnecessaryandunconstitutionallycommencedbythePresident—myrecollectionisthatMr。Lincolnvotedforthatresolution。]

Thatisthetruth。Now，youallrememberthatwasaresolutioncensuringthePresidentforthemannerinwhichthewarwasbegun。

YouknowtheyhavechargedthatIvotedagainstthesupplies，bywhichIstarvedthesoldierswhowereoutfightingthebattlesoftheircountry。IsaythatFICKLINknowsitisfalse。WhenthatchargewasbroughtforwardbytheChicagoTimes，theSpringfieldRegister[Douglas’sorgan]remindedtheTimesthatthechargereallyappliedtoJohnHenry；andIdoknowthatJohnHenryisnowmakingspeechesandfiercelybattlingforJudgeDouglas。IftheJudgenowsaysthatheoffersthisasasortofsetofftowhatIsaidto—dayinreferencetoTrumbull’scharge，thenIremindhimthathemadethischargebeforeIsaidawordaboutTrumbull’s。HebroughtthisforwardatOttawa，thefirsttimewemetfacetoface；andintheopeningspeechthatJudgeDouglasmadeheattackedmeinregardtoamattertenyearsold。Isn’theaprettymantobewhiningaboutpeoplemakingchargesagainsthimonlytwoyearsold！

TheJudgethinksitisaltogetherwrongthatIshouldhavedweltuponthischargeofTrumbull’satall。Igavetheapologyfordoingsoinmyopeningspeech。Perhapsitdidn’tfixyourattention。IsaidthatwhenJudgeDouglaswasspeakingatplace——whereIspokeonthesucceedingdayheusedveryharshlanguageaboutthischarge。TwoorthreetimesafterwardIsaidIhadconfidenceinJudgeTrumbull’sveracityandintelligence；andmyownopinionwas，fromwhatIknewofthecharacterofJudgeTrumbull，thathewouldvindicatehispositionandprovewhateverhehadstatedtobetrue。ThisI

repeatedtwoorthreetimes；andthenIdroppedit，withoutsayinganythingmoreonthesubjectforweeks——perhapsamonth。IpasseditbywithoutnoticingitatalltillIfound，atJacksonville，JudgeDouglasintheplenitudeofhispowerisnotwillingtoanswerTrumbullandletmealone，buthecomesoutthereandusesthislanguage："HeshouldnothereafteroccupyhistimeinrefutingsuchchargesmadebyTrumbullbutthat，LincolnhavingindorsedthecharacterofTrumbullforveracity，heshouldholdhim[Lincoln]

responsiblefortheslanders。"WhatwasLincolntodo？Didhenotdoright，whenhehadthefitopportunityofmeetingJudgeDouglashere，totellhimhewasreadyfortheresponsibility？IaskacandidaudiencewhetherindoingthusJudgeDouglaswasnottheassailantratherthanI？HereImeethimfacetoface，andsayIamreadytotaketheresponsibility，sofarasitrestsonme。

HavingdonesoIasktheattentionofthisaudiencetothequestionwhetherIhavesucceededinsustainingthecharge，andwhetherJudgeDouglashasatallsucceededinrebuttingit？Youallheardmecalluponhimtosaywhichofthesepiecesofevidencewasaforgery。

DoeshesaythatwhatIpresenthereasacopyoftheoriginalToombsbillisaforgery？DoeshesaythatwhatIpresentasacopyofthebillreportedbyhimselfisaforgery，orwhatispresentedasatranscriptfromtheGlobeofthequotationsfromBigler’sspeechisaforgery？Doeshesaythequotationsfromhisownspeechareforgeries？DoeshesaythistranscriptfromTrumbull’sspeechisaforgery？

["Hedidn’tdenyoneofthem。"]

Iwouldthenliketoknowhowitcomesaboutthatwheneachpieceofastoryistruethewholestoryturnsoutfalse。Itakeitthesepeoplehavesomesense；theyseeplainlythatJudgeDouglasisplayingcuttle—fish，asmallspeciesoffishthathasnomodeofdefendingitselfwhenpursuedexceptbythrowingoutablackfluid，whichmakesthewatersodarktheenemycannotseeit，andthusitescapes。Ain’ttheJudgeplayingthecuttle—fish？

Now，IwouldaskveryspecialattentiontotheconsiderationofJudgeDouglas’sspeechatJacksonville；andwhenyoushallreadhisspeechofto—day，Iaskyoutowatchcloselyandseewhichofthesepiecesoftestimony，everyoneofwhichhesaysisaforgery，hehasshowntobesuch。Notoneofthemhasheshowntobeaforgery。ThenI

asktheoriginalquestion，ifeachofthepiecesoftestimonyistrue，howisitpossiblethatthewholeisafalsehood？

InregardtoTrumbull’schargethatheDouglas]insertedaprovisionintothebilltopreventtheconstitutionbeingsubmittedtothepeople，whatwashisanswer？HecomeshereandreadsfromtheCongressionalGlobetoshowthatonhismotionthatprovisionwasstruckoutofthebill。Why，Trumbullhasnotsaiditwasnotstrickenout，butTrumbullsayshe[Douglas]putitin；anditisnoanswertothechargetosayheafterwardstookitout。Bothareperhapstrue。ItwasinregardtothatthingpreciselythatItoldhimhehaddroppedthecub。Trumbullshowsyouthatbyhisintroducingthebillitwashiscub。ItisnoanswertothatassertiontocallTrumbullaliarmerelybecausehedidnotspeciallysaythatDouglasstruckitout。Supposethatwerethecase，doesitanswerTrumbull？Iassertthatyou[pointingtoanindividual]arehereto—day，andyouundertaketoprovemealiarbyshowingthatyouwereinMattoonyesterday。Isaythatyoutookyourhatoffyourhead，andyouprovemealiarbyputtingitonyourhead。ThatisthewholeforceofDouglas’sargument。

Now，Iwanttocomebacktomyoriginalquestion。TrumbullsaysthatJudgeDouglashadabillwithaprovisioninitforsubmittingaconstitutiontobemadetoavoteofthepeopleofKansas。DoesJudgeDouglasdenythatfact？DoesbedenythattheprovisionwhichTrumbullreadswasputinthatbill？ThenTrumbullsayshestruckitout。Doeshedaretodenythat？Hedoesnot，andIhavetherighttorepeatthequestion，——WhyJudgeDouglastookitout？Biglerhassaidtherewasacombinationofcertainsenators，amongwhomhedidnotincludeJudgeDouglas，bywhichitwasagreedthattheKansasBillshouldhaveaclauseinitnottohavetheconstitutionformedunderitsubmittedtoavoteofthepeople。HedidnotsaythatDouglaswasamongthem，butweprovebyanothersourcethataboutthesametimeDouglascomesintotheSenatewiththatprovisionstrickenoutofthebill。AlthoughBiglercannotsaytheywereallworkinginconcert，yetitlooksverymuchasifthethingwasagreeduponanddonewithamutualunderstandingaftertheconference；andwhilewedonotknowthatitwasabsolutelyso，yetitlookssoprobablethatwehavearighttocalluponthemanwhoknowsthetruereasonwhyitwasdonetotellwhatthetruereasonwas。Whenhewillnottellwhatthetruereasonwas，hestandsintheattitudeofanaccusedthiefwhohasstolengoodsinhispossession，andwhencalledtoaccountrefusestotellwherehegotthem。Notonlyisthistheevidence，butwhenhecomesinwiththebillhavingtheprovisionstrickenout，hetellsusinaspeech，notthenbutsince，thatthesealterationsandmodificationsinthebillhadbeenmadebyHIM，inconsultationwithToombs，theoriginatorofthebill。Hetellsusthesameto—day。Hesaystherewerecertainmodificationsmadeinthebillincommitteethathedidnotvotefor。Iaskyoutoremember，whilecertainamendmentsweremadewhichhedisapprovedof，butwhichamajorityofthecommitteevotedin，hehashimselftoldusthatinthisparticularthealterationsandmodificationsweremadebyhim，uponconsultationwithToombs。Wehavehisownwordthatthesealterationsweremadebyhim，andnotbythecommittee。

Now，Iask，whatisthereasonJudgeDouglasissocharyaboutcomingtotheexactquestion？WhatisthereasonhewillnottellyouanythingaboutHowitwasmade，BYWHOMitwasmade，orthatheremembersitbeingmadeatall？Whydoeshestandplayinguponthemeaningofwordsandquibblingaroundtheedgesoftheevidence？Ifhecanexplainallthis，butleavesitunexplained，IhavetherighttoinferthatJudgeDouglasunderstooditwasthepurposeofhisparty，inengineeringthatbillthrough，tomakeaconstitution，andhaveKansascomeintotheUnionwiththatconstitution，withoutitsbeingsubmittedtoavoteofthepeople。Ifhewillexplainhisactiononthisquestion，bygivingabetterreasonforthefactsthathappenedthanhehasdone，itwillbesatisfactory。Butuntilhedoesthat——untilhegivesabetterormoreplausiblereasonthanhehasofferedagainsttheevidenceinthecase——Isuggesttohimitwillnotavailhimatallthatheswellshimselfup，takesondignity，andcallspeopleliars。Why，sir，thereisnotawordinTrumbull’sspeechthatdependsonTrumbull’sveracityatall。Hehasonlyarrayedtheevidenceandtoldyouwhatfollowsasamatterofreasoning。ThereisnotastatementinthewholespeechthatdependsonTrumbull’sword。Ifyouhaveeverstudiedgeometry，yourememberthatbyacourseofreasoningEuclidprovesthatalltheanglesinatriangleareequaltotworightangles。Euclidhasshownyouhowtoworkitout。Now，ifyouundertaketodisprovethatproposition，andtoshowthatitiserroneous，wouldyouproveittobefalsebycallingEuclidaliar？Theytellmethatmytimeisout，andthereforeIclose。

FIFTHJOINTDEBATE，ATGALESBURGH，OCTOBER7，1858

Mr。LINCOLN’SREPLY。

MYFELLOW—CITIZENS：AverylargeportionofthespeechwhichJudgeDouglashasaddressedtoyouhaspreviouslybeendeliveredandputinprint。IdonotmeanthatforahitupontheJudgeatall。———IfI

hadnotbeeninterrupted，IwasgoingtosaythatsuchananswerasI

wasabletomaketoaverylargeportionofithadalreadybeenmorethanoncemadeandpublished。Therehasbeenanopportunityaffordedtothepublictoseeourrespectiveviewsuponthetopicsdiscussedinalargeportionofthespeechwhichhehasjustdelivered。ImaketheseremarksforthepurposeofexcusingmyselffornotpassingovertheentiregroundthattheJudgehastraversed。Ihoweverdesiretotakeupsomeofthepointsthathehasattendedto，andaskyourattentiontothem，andIshallfollowhimbackwardsuponsomenoteswhichIhavetaken，reversingtheorder，bybeginningwhereheconcluded。

TheJudgehasalludedtotheDeclarationofIndependence，andinsistedthatnegroesarenotincludedinthatDeclaration；andthatitisaslanderupontheframersofthatinstrumenttosupposethatnegroesweremeanttherein；andheasksyou：IsitpossibletobelievethatMr。Jefferson，whopennedtheimmortalpaper，couldhavesupposedhimselfapplyingthelanguageofthatinstrumenttothenegrorace，andyetheldaportionofthatraceinslavery？Wouldhenotatoncehavefreedthem？IonlyhavetoremarkuponthispartoftheJudge’sspeech(andthat，too，verybriefly，forIshallnotdetainmyself，oryou，uponthatpointforanygreatlengthoftime)，thatIbelievetheentirerecordsoftheworld，fromthedateoftheDeclarationofIndependenceuptowithinthreeyearsago，maybesearchedinvainforonesingleaffirmation，fromonesingleman，thatthenegrowasnotincludedintheDeclarationofIndependence；I

thinkImaydefyJudgeDouglastoshowthatheeversaidso，thatWashingtoneversaidso，thatanyPresidenteversaidso，thatanymemberofCongresseversaidso，orthatanylivingmanuponthewholeeartheversaidso，untilthenecessitiesofthepresentpolicyoftheDemocraticparty，inregardtoslavery，hadtoinventthataffirmation。AndIwillremindJudgeDouglasandthisaudiencethatwhileMr。Jeffersonwastheownerofslaves，asundoubtedlyhewas，inspeakinguponthisverysubjectheusedthestronglanguagethat"hetrembledforhiscountrywhenherememberedthatGodwasjust"；

andIwillofferthehighestpremiuminmypowertoJudgeDouglasifhewillshowthathe，inallhislife，everutteredasentimentatallakintothatofJefferson。

ThenextthingtowhichIwillaskyourattentionistheJudge’scommentsuponthefact，asheassumesittobe，thatwecannotcallourpublicmeetingsasRepublicanmeetings；andheinstancesTazewellCountyasoneoftheplaceswherethefriendsofLincolnhavecalledapublicmeetingandhavenotdaredtonameitaRepublicanmeeting。

HeinstancesMonroeCountyasanother，whereJudgeTrumbullandJehuBakeraddressedthepersonswhomtheJudgeassumestobethefriendsofLincolncallingthemthe"FreeDemocracy。"IhavethehonortoinformJudgeDouglasthathespokeinthatverycountyofTazewelllastSaturday，andIwasthereonTuesdaylast；andwhenhespokethere，hespokeunderacallnotventuringtousetheword"Democrat。"[TurningtoJudgeDouglas。]whatthinkyouofthis？

So，again，thereisanotherthingtowhichIwouldasktheJudge’sattentionuponthissubject。Inthecontestof1856hispartydelightedtocallthemselvestogetherasthe"NationalDemocracy"；

butnow，ifthereshouldbeanoticeputupanywhereforameetingofthe"NationalDemocracy，"JudgeDouglasandhisfriendswouldnotcome。Theywouldnotsupposethemselvesinvited。Theywouldunderstandthatitwasacallforthosehatefulpostmasterswhomhetalksabout。

NowafewwordsinregardtotheseextractsfromspeechesofminewhichJudgeDouglashasreadtoyou，andwhichhesupposesareinverygreatcontrasttoeachother。Thosespeecheshavebeenbeforethepublicforaconsiderabletime，andiftheyhaveanyinconsistencyinthem，ifthereisanyconflictinthem，thepublichavebeenabletodetectit。WhentheJudgesays，inspeakingonthissubject，thatImakespeechesofonesortforthepeopleofthenorthernendoftheState，andofadifferentsortforthesouthernpeople，heassumesthatIdonotunderstandthatmyspeecheswillbeputinprintandreadnorthandsouth。IknewallthewhilethatthespeechthatImadeatChicago，andtheoneImadeatJonesboroandtheoneatCharleston，wouldallbeputinprint，andallthereadingandintelligentmeninthecommunitywouldseethemandknowallaboutmyopinions。AndIhavenotsupposed，anddonotnowsuppose，thatthereisanyconflictwhateverbetweenthem。ButtheJudgewillhaveitthatifwedonotconfessthatthereisasortofinequalitybetweenthewhiteandblackraceswhichjustifiesusinmakingthemslaves，wemusttheninsistthatthereisadegreeofequalitythatrequiresustomakethemourwives。Now，Ihaveallthewhiletakenabroaddistinctioninregardtothatmatter；andthatisallthereisinthesedifferentspeecheswhichhearrayshere；andtheentirereadingofeitherofthespeecheswillshowthatthatdistinctionwasmade。Perhapsbytakingtwopartsofthesamespeechhecouldhavegotupasmuchofaconflictastheonehehasfound。Ihaveallthewhilemaintainedthatinsofarasitshouldbeinsistedthattherewasanequalitybetweenthewhiteandblackracesthatshouldproduceaperfectsocialandpoliticalequality，itwasanimpossibility。

Thisyouhaveseeninmyprintedspeeches，andwithitIhavesaidthatintheirrightto"life，liberty，andthepursuitofhappiness，"

asproclaimedinthatoldDeclaration，theinferiorracesareourequals。AndthesedeclarationsIhaveconstantlymadeinreferencetotheabstractmoralquestion，tocontemplateandconsiderwhenwearelegislatingaboutanynewcountrywhichisnotalreadycursedwiththeactualpresenceoftheevil，——slavery。Ihavenevermanifestedanyimpatiencewiththenecessitiesthatspringfromtheactualpresenceofblackpeopleamongstus，andtheactualexistenceofslaveryamongstuswhereitdoesalreadyexist；butIhaveinsistedthat，inlegislatingfornewcountrieswhereitdoesnotexistthereisnojustruleotherthanthatofmoralandabstractright！Withreferencetothosenewcountries，thosemaximsastotherightofapeopleto"life，liberty，andthepursuitofhappiness"

werethejustrulestobeconstantlyreferredto。Thereisnomisunderstandingthis，exceptbymeninterestedtomisunderstandit。

ItakeitthatIhavetoaddressanintelligentandreadingcommunity，whowillperusewhatIsay，weighit，andthenjudgewhetherIadvancedimproperorunsoundviews，orwhetherIadvancedhypocritical，anddeceptive，andcontraryviewsindifferentportionsofthecountry。Ibelievemyselftobeguiltyofnosuchthingasthelatter，though，ofcourse，IcannotclaimthatIamentirelyfreefromallerrorintheopinionsIadvance。

TheJudgehasalsodetainedusawhileinregardtothedistinctionbetweenhispartyandourparty。Hisheassumestobeanationalparty，oursasectionalone。HedoesthisinaskingthequestionwhetherthiscountryhasanyinterestinthemaintenanceoftheRepublicanparty。Heassumesthatourpartyisaltogethersectional，thatthepartytowhichheadheresisnational；andtheargumentis，thatnopartycanbearightfulparty——andbebaseduponrightfulprinciples——unlessitcanannounceitsprincipleseverywhere。I

presumethatJudgeDouglascouldnotgointoRussiaandannouncethedoctrineofournationalDemocracy；hecouldnotdenouncethedoctrineofkingsandemperorsandmonarchiesinRussia；anditmaybetrueofthiscountrythatinsomeplaceswemaynotbeabletoproclaimadoctrineasclearlytrueasthetruthofdemocracy，becausethereisasectionsodirectlyopposedtoitthattheywillnottolerateusindoingso。Isitthetruetestofthesoundnessofadoctrinethatinsomeplacespeoplewon’tletyouproclaimit？Isthatthewaytotestthetruthofanydoctrine？Why，IunderstoodthatatonetimethepeopleofChicagowouldnotletJudgeDouglaspreachacertainfavoritedoctrineofhis。Icommendtohisconsiderationthequestionwhetherhetakesthatasatestoftheunsoundnessofwhathewantedtopreach。

ThereisanotherthingtowhichIwishtoaskattentionforalittlewhileonthisoccasion。WhathasalwaysbeentheevidencebroughtforwardtoprovethattheRepublicanpartyisasectionalparty？ThemainonewasthatintheSouthernportionoftheUnionthepeopledidnotlettheRepublicansproclaimtheirdoctrinesamongstthem。Thathasbeenthemainevidencebroughtforward，——thattheyhadnosupporters，orsubstantiallynone，intheSlaveStates。TheSouthhavenottakenholdofourprinciplesasweannouncethem；nordoesJudgeDouglasnowgrapplewiththoseprinciples。WehaveaRepublicanStatePlatform，laiddowninSpringfieldinJunelaststatingourpositionallthewaythroughthequestionsbeforethecountry。Wearenowfaradvancedinthiscanvass。JudgeDouglasandIhavemadeperhapsfortyspeechesapiece，andwehavenowforthefifthtimemetfacetofaceindebate，anduptothisdayIhavenotfoundeitherJudgeDouglasoranyfriendofhistakingholdoftheRepublicanplatform，orlayinghisfingeruponanythinginitthatiswrong。Iaskyoualltorecollectthat。JudgeDouglasturnsawayfromtheplatformofprinciplestothefactthathecanfindpeoplesomewherewhowillnotallowustoannouncethoseprinciples。Ifhehadgreatconfidencethatourprincipleswerewrong，hewouldtakeholdofthemanddemonstratethemtobewrong。Buthedoesnotdoso。Theonlyevidencehehasoftheirbeingwrongisinthefactthattherearepeoplewhowon’tallowustopreachthem。Iaskagain，isthatthewaytotestthesoundnessofadoctrine？

Iaskhisattentionalsotothefactthatbytheruleofnationalityheishimselffastbecomingsectional。IaskhisattentiontothefactthathisspeecheswouldnotgoascurrentnowsouthoftheOhioRiverastheyhaveformerlygonethereIaskhisattentiontothefactthathefelicitateshimselfto—daythatalltheDemocratsofthefreeStatesareagreeingwithhim，whileheomitstotellusthattheDemocratsofanyslaveStateagreewithhim。Ifhehasnotthoughtofthis，Icommendtohisconsiderationtheevidenceinhisowndeclaration，onthisday，ofhisbecomingsectionaltoo。Iseeitrapidlyapproaching。WhatevermaybetheresultofthisephemeralcontestbetweenJudgeDouglasandmyself，Iseethedayrapidlyapproachingwhenhispillofsectionalism，whichhehasbeenthrustingdownthethroatsofRepublicansforyearspast，willbecrowdeddownhisownthroat。

Now，inregardtowhatJudgeDouglassaid(inthebeginningofhisspeech)abouttheCompromiseof1850containingtheprinciplesoftheNebraskaBill，althoughIhaveoftenpresentedmyviewsuponthatsubject，yetasIhavenotdonesointhiscanvass，Iwill，ifyouplease，detainyoualittlewiththem。Ihavealwaysmaintained，sofarasIwasable，thattherewasnothingoftheprincipleoftheNebraskaBillintheCompromiseof1850atall，——nothingwhatever。

WherecanyoufindtheprincipleoftheNebraskaBillinthatCompromise？Ifanywhere，inthetwopiecesoftheCompromiseorganizingtheTerritoriesofNewMexicoandUtah。ItwasexpresslyprovidedinthesetwoactsthatwhentheycametobeadmittedintotheUniontheyshouldbeadmittedwithorwithoutslavery，astheyshouldchoose，bytheirownconstitutions。NothingwassaidineitherofthoseactsastowhatwastobedoneinrelationtoslaveryduringtheTerritorialexistenceofthoseTerritories，whileHenryClayconstantlymadethedeclaration(JudgeDouglasrecognizinghimasaleader)that，inhisopinion，theoldMexicanlawswouldcontrolthatquestionduringtheTerritorialexistence，andthattheseoldMexicanlawsexcludedslavery。HowcanthatbeusedasaprinciplefordeclaringthatduringtheTerritorialexistenceaswellasatthetimeofframingtheconstitutionthepeople，ifyouplease，mighthaveslavesiftheywantedthem？Iamnotdiscussingthequestionwhetheritisrightorwrong；buthowaretheNewMexicanandUtahlawspatternsfortheNebraskaBill？ImaintainthattheorganizationofUtahandNewMexicodidnotestablishageneralprincipleatall。Ithadnofeatureofestablishingageneralprinciple。TheactstowhichIhavereferredwereapartofageneralsystemofCompromises。TheydidnotlaydownwhatwasproposedasaregularpolicyfortheTerritories，onlyanagreementinthisparticularcasetodointhatway，becauseotherthingsweredonethatweretobeacompensationforit。Theywereallowedtocomeininthatshape，becauseinanotherwayitwaspaidfor，consideringthatasapartofthatsystemofmeasurescalledtheCompromiseof1850，whichfinallyincludedhalf—a—dozenacts。ItincludedtheadmissionofCaliforniaasafreeState，whichwaskeptoutoftheUnionforhalfayearbecauseithadformedafreeconstitution。ItincludedthesettlementoftheboundaryofTexas，whichhadbeenundefinedbefore，whichwasinitselfaslaveryquestion；forifyoupushedthelinefartherwest，youmadeTexaslarger，andmademoreslaveterritory；while，ifyoudrewthelinetowardtheeast，younarrowedtheboundaryanddiminishedthedomainofslavery，andbysomuchincreasedfreeterritory。ItincludedtheabolitionoftheslavetradeintheDistrictofColumbia。ItincludedthepassageofanewFugitiveSlavelaw。Allthesethingswereputtogether，and，thoughpassedinseparateacts，werenevertheless，inlegislation(asthespeechesatthetimewillshow)，madetodependuponeachother。Eachgotvoteswiththeunderstandingthattheothermeasuresweretopass，andbythissystemofcompromise，inthatseriesofmeasures，thosetwobills——

theNewMexicoandUtahbills——werepassed：andIsayforthatreasontheycouldnotbetakenasmodels，framedupontheirownintrinsicprinciple，forallfutureTerritories。AndIhavetheevidenceofthisinthefactthatJudgeDouglas，ayearafterward，ormorethanayearafterward，perhaps，whenhefirstintroducedbillsforthepurposeofframingnewTerritories，didnotattempttofollowthesebillsofNewMexicoandUtah；andevenwhenheintroducedthisNebraskaBill，Ithinkyouwilldiscoverthathedidnotexactlyfollowthem。ButIdonotwishtodwellatgreatlengthuponthisbranchofthediscussion。Myownopinionis，thatathoroughinvestigationwillshowmostplainlythattheNewMexicoandUtahbillswerepartofasystemofcompromise，andnotdesignedaspatternsforfutureTerritoriallegislation；andthatthisNebraskaBilldidnotfollowthemasapatternatall。

TheJudgetells，inproceeding，thatheisopposedtomakinganyodiousdistinctionsbetweenfreeandslaveStates。IamaltogetherunawarethattheRepublicansareinfavorofmakinganyodiousdistinctionsbetweenthefreeandslaveStates。Butthereisstilladifference，Ithink，betweenJudgeDouglasandtheRepublicansinthis。IsupposethattherealdifferencebetweenJudgeDouglasandhisfriends，andtheRepublicansonthecontrary，is，thattheJudgeisnotinfavorofmakinganydifferencebetweenslaveryandliberty；

thatheisinfavoroferadicating，ofpressingoutofview，thequestionsofpreferenceinthiscountryforfreeorslaveinstitutions；andconsequentlyeverysentimentheuttersdiscardstheideathatthereisanywronginslavery。Everythingthatemanatesfromhimorhiscoadjutorsintheircourseofpolicycarefullyexcludesthethoughtthatthereisanythingwronginslavery。Alltheirarguments，ifyouwillconsiderthem，willbeseentoexcludethethoughtthatthereisanythingwhateverwronginslavery。IfyouwilltaketheJudge’sspeeches，andselecttheshortandpointedsentencesexpressedbyhim，——ashisdeclarationthathe"don’tcarewhetherslaveryisvotedupordown，"——youwillseeatoncethatthisisperfectlylogical，ifyoudonotadmitthatslaveryiswrong。Ifyoudoadmitthatitiswrong，JudgeDouglascannotlogicallysayhedon’tcarewhetherawrongisvoteduporvoteddown。JudgeDouglasdeclaresthatifanycommunitywantsslaverytheyhavearighttohaveit。Hecansaythatlogically，ifhesaysthatthereisnowronginslavery；butifyouadmitthatthereisawronginit，hecannotlogicallysaythatanybodyhasarighttodowrong。Heinsiststhatuponthescoreofequalitytheownersofslavesandownersofproperty——ofhorsesandeveryothersortofproperty——

shouldbealike，andholdthemalikeinanewTerritory。Thatisperfectlylogicalifthetwospeciesofpropertyarealikeandareequallyfoundedinright。Butifyouadmitthatoneofthemiswrong，youcannotinstituteanyequalitybetweenrightandwrong。

Andfromthisdifferenceofsentiment，——thebeliefonthepartofonethattheinstitutioniswrong，andapolicyspringingfromthatbeliefwhichlookstothearrestoftheenlargementofthatwrong，andthisothersentiment，thatitisnowrong，andapolicysprungfromthatsentiment，whichwilltoleratenoideaofpreventingthewrongfromgrowinglarger，andlookstothereneverbeinganendtoitthroughalltheexistenceofthings，——arisestherealdifferencebetweenJudgeDouglasandhisfriendsontheonehandandtheRepublicansontheother。Now，Iconfessmyselfasbelongingtothatclassinthecountrywhocontemplateslaveryasamoral，social，andpoliticalevil，havingdueregardforitsactualexistenceamongstusandthedifficultiesofgettingridofitinanysatisfactoryway，andtoalltheconstitutionalobligationswhichhavebeenthrownaboutit；but，nevertheless，desireapolicythatlookstothepreventionofitasawrong，andlookshopefullytothetimewhenasawrongitmaycometoanend。

JudgeDouglashasagain，for，Ibelieve，thefifthtime，ifnottheseventh，inmypresence，reiteratedhischargeofaconspiracyorcombinationbetweentheNationalDemocratsandRepublicans。WhatevidenceJudgeDouglashasuponthissubjectIknownot，inasmuchasheneverfavorsuswithany。Ihavesaiduponaformeroccasion，andIdonotchoosetosuppressitnow，thatIhavenoobjectiontothedivisionintheJudge’sparty。Hegotituphimself。Itwasallhisandtheirwork。Hehad，Ithink，agreatdealmoretodowiththestepsthatledtotheLecomptonConstitutionthanMr。Buchananhad；

thoughatlast，whentheyreachedit，theyquarreledoverit，andtheirfriendsdivideduponit。IamveryfreetoconfesstoJudgeDouglasthatIhavenoobjectiontothedivision；butIdefytheJudgetoshowanyevidencethatIhaveinanywaypromotedthatdivision，unlessheinsistsonbeingawitnesshimselfinmerelysayingso。IcangiveallfairfriendsofJudgeDouglasheretounderstandexactlytheviewthatRepublicanstakeinregardtothatdivision。Don’tyourememberhowtwoyearsagotheopponentsoftheDemocraticpartyweredividedbetweenFremontandFillmore？Iguessyoudo。AnyDemocratwhoremembersthatdivisionwillrememberalsothathewasatthetimeverygladofit，andthenhewillbeabletoseeallthereisbetweentheNationalDemocratsandtheRepublicans。

WhatwenowthinkofthetwodivisionsofDemocrats，youthenthoughtoftheFremontandFillmoredivisions。Thatisallthereisofit。

ButiftheJudgecontinuestoputforwardthedeclarationthatthereisanunholyandunnaturalalliancebetweentheRepublicansandtheNationalDemocrats，Inowwanttoentermyprotestagainstreceivinghimasanentirelycompetentwitnessuponthatsubject。IwanttocalltotheJudge’sattentionanattackhemadeuponmeinthefirstoneofthesedebates，atOttawa，onthe21stofAugust。InordertofixextremeAbolitionismuponme，JudgeDouglasreadasetofresolutionswhichhedeclaredhadbeenpassedbyaRepublicanStateConvention，inOctober，1854，atSpringfield，Illinois，andhedeclaredIhadtakenpartinthatConvention。Itturnedoutthatalthoughafewmencallingthemselvesananti—NebraskaStateConventionhadsatatSpringfieldaboutthattime，yetneitherdidItakeanypartinit，nordiditpasstheresolutionsoranysuchresolutionsasJudgeDouglasread。SoapparenthaditbecomethattheresolutionswhichhereadhadnotbeenpassedatSpringfieldatall，norbyaStateConventioninwhichIhadtakenpart，thatsevendaysafterward，atFreeport，JudgeDouglasdeclaredthathehadbeenmisledbyCharlesH。Lanphier，editoroftheStateRegister，andThomasL。Harris，memberofCongressinthatdistrict，andhepromisedinthatspeechthatwhenhewenttoSpringfieldhewouldinvestigatethematter。

SincethenJudgeDouglashasbeentoSpringfield，andIpresumehasmadetheinvestigation；butamonthhaspassedsincehehasbeenthere，and，sofarasIknow，hehasmadenoreportoftheresultofhisinvestigation。IhavewaitedasIthinksufficienttimeforthereportofthatinvestigation，andIhavesomecuriositytoseeandhearit。Afraud，anabsoluteforgerywascommitted，andtheperpetrationofitwastracedtothethree，——Lanphier，Harris，andDouglas。Whetheritcanbenarrowedinanywaysoastoexonerateanyoneofthem，iswhatJudgeDouglas’sreportwouldprobablyshow。

ItistruethatthesetofresolutionsreadbyJudgeDouglaswerepublishedintheIllinoisStateRegisteronthe16thofOctober，1854，asbeingtheresolutionsofananti—NebraskaConventionwhichhadsatinthatsamemonthofOctober，atSpringfield。ButitisalsotruethatthepublicationintheRegisterwasaforgerythen，andthequestionisstillbehind，whichofthethree，ifnotallofthem，committedthatforgery。Theideathatitwasdonebymistakeisabsurd。ThearticleintheIllinoisStateRegistercontainspartoftherealproceedingsofthatSpringfieldConvention，showingthatthewriterofthearticlehadtherealproceedingsbeforehim，andpurposelythrewoutthegenuineresolutionspassedbytheConventionandfraudulentlysubstitutedtheothers。Lanphierthen，asnow，wastheeditoroftheRegister，sothatthereseemstobebutlittleroomforhisescape。ButthenitistobeborneinmindthatLanphierhadlessinterestintheobjectofthatforgerythaneitheroftheothertwo。ThemainobjectofthatforgeryatthattimewastobeatYatesandelectHarristoCongress，andthatobjectwasknowntobeexceedinglydeartoJudgeDouglasatthattime。HarrisandDouglaswerebothinSpringfieldwhentheConventionwasinsession，andalthoughtheybothleftbeforethefraudappearedintheRegister，subsequenteventsshowthattheyhavebothhadtheireyesfixeduponthatConvention。

Thefraudhavingbeenapparentlysuccessfulupontheoccasion，bothHarrisandDouglashavemorethanoncesincethenbeenattemptingtoputittonewuses。Asthefisherman’swife，whosedrownedhusbandwasbroughthomewithhisbodyfullofeels，saidwhenshewasaskedwhatwastobedonewithhim，"Taketheeelsoutandsethimagain，"

soHarrisandDouglashaveshownadispositiontotaketheeelsoutofthatstalefraudbywhichtheygainedHarris’selection，andsetthefraudagainmorethanonce。Onthe9thofJuly，1856，DouglasattemptedarepetitionofituponTrumbullontheflooroftheSenateoftheUnitedStates，aswillappearfromtheappendixoftheCongressionalGlobeofthatdate。

Onthe9thofAugust，HarrisattempteditagainuponNortonintheHouseofRepresentatives，aswillappearbythesamedocuments，——theappendixtotheCongressionalGlobeofthatdate。Onthe21stofAugustlast，allthree——Lanphier，Douglas，andHarris——reattemptedituponmeatOttawa。Ithasbeenclungtoandplayedoutagainandagainasanexceedinglyhightrumpbythisblessedtrio。AndnowthatithasbeendiscoveredpubliclytobeafraudwefindthatJudgeDouglasmanifestsnosurpriseatitatall。HemakesnocomplaintofLanphier，whomusthaveknownittobeafraudfromthebeginning。

He，Lanphier，andHarrisarejustascozynowandjustasactiveintheconcoctionofnewschemesastheywerebeforethegeneraldiscoveryofthisfraud。Now，allthisisverynaturaliftheyareallalikeguiltyinthatfraud，anditisveryunnaturalifanyoneofthemisinnocent。Lanphierperhapsinsiststhattheruleofhonoramongthievesdoesnotquiterequirehimtotakealluponhimself，andconsequentlymyfriendJudgeDouglasfindsitdifficulttomakeasatisfactoryreportuponhisinvestigation。Butmeanwhilethethreeareagreedthateachis"amosthonorableman。"

JudgeDouglasrequiresanindorsementofhistruthandhonorbyare—electiontotheUnitedStatesSenate，andhemakesandreportsagainstmeandagainstJudgeTrumbull，dayafterday，chargeswhichweknowtobeutterlyuntrue，withoutforamomentseemingtothinkthatthisoneunexplainedfraud，whichhepromisedtoinvestigate，willbetheleastdrawbacktohisclaimtobelief。Harrisditto。Heasksare—electiontothelowerHouseofCongresswithoutseemingtorememberatallthatheisinvolvedinthisdishonorablefraud！TheIllinoisStateRegister，editedbyLanphier，then，asnow，thecentralorganofbothHarrisandDouglas，continuestodinthepublicearwiththisassertion，withoutseemingtosuspectthattheseassertionsareatalllackingintitletobelief。

Afterall，thequestionstillrecursuponus，HowdidthatfraudoriginallygetintotheStateRegister。？Lanphierthen，asnow，wastheeditorofthatpaper。Lanphierknows。Lanphiercannotbeignorantofhowandbywhomitwasoriginallyconcocted。Canhebeinducedtotell，or，ifhehastold，canJudgeDouglasbeinducedtotellhowitoriginallywasconcocted？ItmaybetruethatLanphierinsiststhatthetwomenforwhosebenefititwasoriginallydevisedshallatleastbeartheirshareofit！Howthatis，Idonotknow，andwhileitremainsunexplainedIhopetobepardonedifIinsistthatthemerefactofJudgeDouglasmakingchargesagainstTrumbullandmyselfisnotquitesufficientevidencetoestablishthem！

WhilewewereatFreeport，inoneofthesejointdiscussions，I

answeredcertaininterrogatorieswhichJudgeDouglashadpropoundedtome，andtheninturnpropoundedsometohim，whichheinasortofwayanswered。ThethirdoneoftheseinterrogatoriesIhavewithme，andwishnowtomakesomecommentsuponit。Itwasinthesewords：

"IftheSupremeCourtoftheUnitedStatesshalldecidethattheStatescannotexcludeslaveryfromtheirlimits，areyouinfavorofacquiescingin，adheringto，andfollowingsuchdecisionasaruleofpoliticalaction？"

TothisinterrogatoryJudgeDouglasmadenoanswerinanyjustsenseoftheword。HecontentedhimselfwithsneeringatthethoughtthatitwaspossiblefortheSupremeCourtevertomakesuchadecision。

Hesneeredatmeforpropoundingtheinterrogatory。Ihadnotpropoundeditwithoutsomereflection，andIwishnowtoaddresstothisaudiencesomeremarksuponit。

Inthesecondclauseofthesixtharticle，Ibelieveitis，oftheConstitutionoftheUnitedStates，wefindthefollowinglanguage：

"ThisConstitutionandthelawsoftheUnitedStateswhichshallbemadeinpursuancethereof，andalltreatiesmade，orwhichshallbemade，undertheauthorityoftheUnitedStates，shallbethesupremelawoftheland；andthejudgesineveryStateshallbeboundthereby，anythingintheConstitutionorlawsofanyStatetothecontrarynotwithstanding。"

TheessenceoftheDredScottcaseiscompressedintothesentencewhichIwillnowread：

"Now，aswehavealreadysaidinanearlierpartofthisopinion，uponadifferentpoint，therightofpropertyinaslaveisdistinctlyandexpresslyaffirmedintheConstitution。"

Irepeatit，"TherightofpropertyinaslaveisdistinctlyandexpresslyaffirmedintheConstitution"！Whatisittobe"affirmed"

intheConstitution？MadefirmintheConstitution，somadethatitcannotbeseparatedfromtheConstitutionwithoutbreakingtheConstitution；durableastheConstitution，andpartoftheConstitution。Now，rememberingtheprovisionoftheConstitutionwhichIhaveread——affirmingthatthatinstrumentisthesupremelawoftheland；thatthejudgesofeveryStateshallbeboundbyit，anylaworconstitutionofanyStatetothecontrarynotwithstanding；

thattherightofpropertyinaslaveisaffirmedinthatConstitution，ismade，formedinto，andcannotbeseparatedfromitwithoutbreakingit；durableastheinstrument；partoftheinstrument；——whatfollowsasashortandevensyllogisticargumentfromit？Ithinkitfollows，andIsubmittotheconsiderationofmencapableofarguingwhether，asIstateit，insyllogisticform，theargumenthasanyfaultinit：

NothingintheConstitutionorlawsofanyStatecandestroyarightdistinctlyandexpresslyaffirmedintheConstitutionoftheUnitedStates。

TherightofpropertyinaslaveisdistinctlyandexpresslyaffirmedintheConstitutionoftheUnitedStates。

Therefore，nothingintheConstitutionorlawsofanyStatecandestroytherightofpropertyinaslave。

Ibelievethatnofaultcanbepointedoutinthatargument；assumingthetruthofthepremises，theconclusion，sofarasIhavecapacityatalltounderstandit，followsinevitably。ThereisafaultinitasIthink，butthefaultisnotinthereasoning；butthefalsehoodinfactisafaultofthepremises。IbelievethattherightofpropertyinaslaveisnotdistinctlyandexpresslyaffirmedintheConstitution，andJudgeDouglasthinksitis。IbelievethattheSupremeCourtandtheadvocatesofthatdecisionmaysearchinvainfortheplaceintheConstitutionwheretherightofpropertyinaslaveisdistinctlyandexpresslyaffirmedIsay，therefore，thatI

thinkoneofthepremisesisnottrueinfact。ButitistruewithJudgeDouglas。ItistruewiththeSupremeCourtwhopronouncedit。

Theyareestoppedfromdenyingit，andbeingestoppedfromdenyingit，theconclusionfollowsthat，theConstitutionoftheUnitedStatesbeingthesupremelaw，noconstitutionorlawcaninterferewithit。ItbeingaffirmedinthedecisionthattherightofpropertyinaslaveisdistinctlyandexpresslyaffirmedintheConstitution，theconclusioninevitablyfollowsthatnoStatelaworconstitutioncandestroythatright。IthensaytoJudgeDouglasandtoallothersthatIthinkitwilltakeabetteranswerthanasneertoshowthatthosewhohavesaidthattherightofpropertyinaslaveisdistinctlyandexpresslyaffirmedintheConstitution，arenotpreparedtoshowthatnoconstitutionorlawcandestroythatright。IsayIbelieveitwilltakeafarbetterargumentthanameresneertoshowtothemindsofintelligentmenthatwhoeverhassosaidisnotprepared，wheneverpublicsentimentissofaradvancedastojustifyit，tosaytheother。Thisisbutanopinion，andtheopinionofoneveryhumbleman；butitismyopinionthattheDredScottdecision，asitis，neverwouldhavebeenmadeinitspresentformifthepartythatmadeithadnotbeensustainedpreviouslybytheelections。Myownopinionis，thatthenewDredScottdecision，decidingagainsttherightofthepeopleoftheStatestoexcludeslavery，willneverbemadeifthatpartyisnotsustainedbytheelections。Ibelieve，further，thatitisjustassuretobemadeasto—morrowistocome，ifthatpartyshallbesustained。Ihavesaid，uponaformeroccasion，andIrepeatitnow，thatthecourseofarguementthatJudgeDouglasmakesuseofuponthissubject(Ichargenothismotivesinthis)，ispreparingthepublicmindforthatnewDredScottdecision。IhaveaskedhimagaintopointouttomethereasonsforhisfirstadherencetotheDredScottdecisionasitis。

IhaveturnedhisattentiontothefactthatGeneralJacksondifferedwithhiminregardtothepoliticalobligationofaSupremeCourtdecision。IhaveaskedhisattentiontothefactthatJeffersondifferedwithhiminregardtothepoliticalobligationofaSupremeCourtdecision。Jeffersonsaidthat"Judgesareashonestasothermen，andnotmoreso。"Andhesaid，substantially，thatwheneverafreepeopleshouldgiveupinabsolutesubmissiontoanydepartmentofgovernment，retainingforthemselvesnoappealfromit，theirlibertiesweregone。IhaveaskedhisattentiontothefactthattheCincinnatiplatform，uponwhichhesayshestands，disregardsatime—honoreddecisionoftheSupremeCourt，indenyingthepowerofCongresstoestablishaNationalBank。IhaveaskedhisattentiontothefactthathehimselfwasoneofthemostactiveinstrumentsatonetimeinbreakingdowntheSupremeCourtoftheStateofIllinoisbecauseithadmadeadecisiondistastefultohim，——astruggleendingintheremarkablecircumstanceofhissittingdownasoneofthenewJudgeswhoweretooverslaughthatdecision；gettinghistitleofJudgeinthatveryway。

SofarinthiscontroversyIcangetnoansweratallfromJudgeDouglasuponthesesubjects。NotonecanIgetfromhim，exceptthatheswellshimselfupandsays，"AllofuswhostandbythedecisionoftheSupremeCourtarethefriendsoftheConstitution；allyoufellowsthatdarequestionitinanywayaretheenemiesoftheConstitution。"Now，inthisverydevotedadherencetothisdecision，inoppositiontoallthegreatpoliticalleaderswhomhehasrecognizedasleaders，inoppositiontohisformerselfandhistory，thereissomethingverymarked。Andthemannerinwhichheadherestoit，——notasbeingrightuponthemerits，asheconceives(becausehedidnotdiscussthatatall)，butasbeingabsolutelyobligatoryuponeveryonesimplybecauseofthesourcefromwhenceitcomes，asthatwhichnomancangainsay，whateveritmaybe，——thisisanothermarkedfeatureofhisadherencetothatdecision。Itmarksitinthisrespect，thatitcommitshimtothenextdecision，wheneveritcomes，asbeingasobligatoryasthisone，sincehedoesnotinvestigateit，andwon’tinquirewhetherthisopinionisrightorwrong。Sohetakesthenextonewithoutinquiringwhetheritisrightorwrong。Heteachesmenthisdoctrine，andinsodoingpreparesthepublicmindtotakethenextdecisionwhenitcomes，withoutanyinquiry。InthisIthinkIarguefairly(withoutquestioningmotivesatall)thatJudgeDouglasismostingeniouslyandpowerfullypreparingthepublicmindtotakethatdecisionwhenitcomes；andnotonlyso，butheisdoingitinvariousotherways。

Inthesegeneralmaximsaboutliberty，inhisassertionsthathe"don’tcarewhetherslaveryisvoteduporvoteddown，"；that"whoeverwantsslaveryhasarighttohaveit"；that"uponprinciplesofequalityitshouldbeallowedtogoeverywhere"；that"thereisnoinconsistencybetweenfreeandslaveinstitutions"—inthisheisalsopreparing(whetherpurposelyornot)thewayformakingtheinstitutionofslaverynational！Irepeatagain，forIwishnomisunderstanding，thatIdonotchargethathemeansitso；butI

calluponyourmindstoinquire，ifyouweregoingtogetthebestinstrumentyoucould，andthensetittoworkinthemostingeniousway，topreparethepublicmindforthismovement，operatinginthefreeStates，wherethereisnowanabhorrenceoftheinstitutionofslavery，couldyoufindaninstrumentsocapableofdoingitasJudgeDouglas，oroneemployedinsoaptawaytodoit？

Ihavesaidoncebefore，andIwillrepeatitnow，thatMr。Clay，whenhewasonceansweringanobjectiontotheColonizationSociety，thatithadatendencytotheultimateemancipationoftheslaves，saidthat：

"thosewhowouldrepressalltendenciestolibertyandultimateemancipationmustdomorethanputdownthebenevolenteffortsoftheColonizationSociety：theymustgobacktotheeraofourlibertyandindependence，andmuzzlethecannonthatthundersitsannualjoyousreturn；theymustblowoutthemorallightsaroundus；theymustpenetratethehumansoul，anderadicatethelightofreasonandtheloveofliberty！"

AndIdothink——Irepeat，thoughIsaiditonaformeroccasion——thatJudgeDouglasandwhoever，likehim，teachesthatthenegrohasnoshare，humblethoughitmaybe，intheDeclarationofIndependence，isgoingbacktotheeraofourlibertyandindependence，and，sofarasinhimlies，muzzlingthecannonthatthundersitsannualjoyousreturn；thatheisblowingoutthemorallightsaroundus，whenhecontendsthatwhoeverwantsslaveshasarighttoholdthem；thatheispenetrating，sofarasliesinhispower，thehumansoul，anderadicatingthelightofreasonandtheloveofliberty，whenheisineverypossiblewaypreparingthepublicmind，byhisvastinfluence，formakingtheinstitutionofslaveryperpetualandnational。

Thereis，myfriends，onlyoneotherpointtowhichIwillcallyourattentionfortheremainingtimethatIhaveleftme，andperhapsI

shallnotoccupytheentiretimethatIhave，asthatonepointmaynottakemeclearthroughit。

AmongtheinterrogatoriesthatJudgeDouglaspropoundedtomeatFreeport，therewasoneinaboutthislanguage：

"AreyouopposedtotheacquisitionofanyfurtherterritorytotheUnitedStates，unlessslaveryshallfirstbeprohibitedtherein？"

Ianswered，asIthought，inthisway：thatIamnotgenerallyopposedtotheacquisitionofadditionalterritory，andthatIwouldsupportapropositionfortheacquisitionofadditionalterritoryaccordingasmysupportingitwasorwasnotcalculatedtoaggravatethisslaveryquestionamongstus。IthenproposedtoJudgeDouglasanotherinterrogatory，whichwascorrelativetothat："Areyouinfavorofacquiringadditionalterritory，indisregardofhowitmayaffectusupontheslaveryquestion？"JudgeDouglasanswered，——thatis，inhisownwayheansweredit。Ibelievethat，althoughhetookagoodmanywordstoanswerit，itwasalittlemorefullyansweredthananyother。Thesubstanceofhisanswerwasthatthiscountrywouldcontinuetoexpand；thatitwouldneedadditionalterritory；

thatitwasasabsurdtosupposethatwecouldcontinueuponourpresentterritory，enlarginginpopulationasweare，asitwouldbetohoopaboytwelveyearsofage，andexpecthimtogrowtoman’ssizewithoutburstingthehoops。Ibelieveitwassomethinglikethat。Consequently，hewasinfavoroftheacquisitionoffurtherterritoryasfastaswemightneedit，indisregardofhowitmightaffecttheslaveryquestion。Idonotsaythisasgivinghisexactlanguage，buthesaidsosubstantially；andhewouldleavethequestionofslavery，wheretheterritorywasacquired，tobesettledbythepeopleoftheacquiredterritory。["That’sthedoctrine。"]

Maybeitis；letusconsiderthatforawhile。Thiswillprobably，intherunofthings，becomeoneoftheconcretemanifestationsofthisslaveryquestion。IfJudgeDouglas’spolicyuponthisquestionsucceeds，andgetsfairlysettleddown，untilalloppositioniscrushedout，thenextthingwillbeagrabfortheterritoryofpoorMexico，aninvasionoftherichlandsofSouthAmerica，thentheadjoiningislandswillfollow，eachoneofwhichpromisesadditionalslave—fields。Andthisquestionistobelefttothepeopleofthosecountriesforsettlement。WhenwegetMexico，Idon’tknowwhethertheJudgewillbeinfavoroftheMexicanpeoplethatwegetwithitsettlingthatquestionforthemselvesandallothers；becauseweknowtheJudgehasagreathorrorformongrels，andIunderstandthatthepeopleofMexicoaremostdecidedlyaraceofmongrels。Iunderstandthatthereisnotmorethanonepersonthereoutofeightwhoispurewhite，andIsupposefromtheJudge’spreviousdeclarationthatwhenwegetMexico，oranyconsiderableportionofit，thathewillbeinfavorofthesemongrelssettlingthequestion，whichwouldbringhimsomewhatintocollisionwithhishorrorofaninferiorrace。

Itistoberemembered，though，thatthispowerofacquiringadditionalterritoryisapowerconfidedtothePresidentandtheSenateoftheUnitedStates。Itisapowernotunderthecontroloftherepresentativesofthepeopleanyfurtherthanthey，thePresidentandtheSenate，canbeconsideredtherepresentativesofthepeople。Letmeillustratethatbyacasewehaveinourhistory。

WhenweacquiredtheterritoryfromMexicointheMexicanWar，theHouseofRepresentatives，composedoftheimmediaterepresentativesofthepeople，allthetimeinsistedthattheterritorythustobeacquiredshouldbebroughtinuponconditionthatslaveryshouldbeforeverprohibitedtherein，uponthetermsandinthelanguagethatslaveryhadbeenprohibitedfromcomingintothiscountry。Thatwasinsisteduponconstantlyandneverfailedtocallforthanassurancethatanyterritorythusacquiredshouldhavethatprohibitioninit，sofarastheHouseofRepresentativeswasconcerned。ButatlastthePresidentandSenateacquiredtheterritorywithoutaskingtheHouseofRepresentativesanythingaboutit，andtookitwithoutthatprohibition。Theyhavethepowerofacquiringterritorywithouttheimmediaterepresentativesofthepeoplebeingcalledupontosayanythingaboutit，andthusfurnishingaveryaptandpowerfulmeansofbringingnewterritoryintotheUnion，and，whenitisoncebroughtintothecountry，involvingusanewinthisslaveryagitation。Itistherefore，asIthink，averyimportantquestionfordueconsiderationoftheAmericanpeople，whetherthepolicyofbringinginadditionalterritory，withoutconsideringatallhowitwilloperateuponthesafetyoftheUnioninreferencetothisonegreatdisturbingelementinournationalpolitics，shallbeadoptedasthepolicyofthecountry。Youwillbearinmindthatitistobeacquired，accordingtotheJudge’sview，asfastasitisneeded，andtheindefinitepartofthispropositionisthatwehaveonlyJudgeDouglasandhisclassofmentodecidehowfastitisneeded。Wehavenoclearandcertainwayofdeterminingordemonstratinghowfastterritoryisneededbythenecessitiesofthecountry。Whoeverwantstogooutfilibustering，then，thinksthatmoreterritoryisneeded。Whoeverwantswiderslave—fieldsfeelssurethatsomeadditionalterritoryisneededasslaveterritory。Thenitisaseasytoshowthenecessityofadditionalslave—territoryasitistoassertanythingthatisincapableofabsolutedemonstration。

Whatevermotiveamanorasetofmenmayhaveformakingannexationofpropertyorterritory，itisveryeasytoassert，butmuchlesseasytodisprove，thatitisnecessaryforthewantsofthecountry。

AndnowitonlyremainsformetosaythatIthinkitisaverygravequestionforthepeopleofthisUniontoconsider，whether，inviewofthefactthatthisslaveryquestionhasbeentheonlyonethathaseverendangeredourRepublicaninstitutions，theonlyonethathaseverthreatenedormenacedadissolutionoftheUnion，thathaseverdisturbedusinsuchawayastomakeusfearfortheperpetuityofourliberty，——inviewofthesefacts，Ithinkitisanexceedinglyinterestingandimportantquestionforthispeopletoconsiderwhetherweshallengageinthepolicyofacquiringadditionalterritory，discardingaltogetherfromourconsideration，whileobtainingnewterritory，thequestionhowitmayaffectusinregardtothis，theonlyendangeringelementtoourlibertiesandnationalgreatness。TheJudge’sviewhasbeenexpressed。I，inmyanswertohisquestion，haveexpressedmine。Ithinkitwillbecomeanimportantandpracticalquestion。Ourviewsarebeforethepublic。

Iamwillingandanxiousthattheyshouldconsiderthemfully；thattheyshouldturnitaboutandconsidertheimportanceofthequestion，andarriveatajustconclusionastowhetheritisorisnotwiseinthepeopleofthisUnion，intheacquisitionofnewterritory，toconsiderwhetheritwilladdtothedisturbancethatisexistingamongstus——whetheritwilladdtotheoneonlydangerthathaseverthreatenedtheperpetuityoftheUnionorourownliberties。

Ithinkitisextremelyimportantthattheyshalldecide，andrightlydecide，thatquestionbeforeenteringuponthatpolicy。

Andnow，myfriends，havingsaidthelittleIwishtosayuponthishead，whetherIhaveoccupiedthewholeoftheremnantofmytimeornot，IbelieveIcouldnotenteruponanynewtopicsoastotreatitfully，withouttranscendingmytime，whichIwouldnotforamomentthinkofdoing。IgivewaytoJudgeDouglas。

SIXTHJOINTDEBATE，ATQUINCY，OCTOBER13，1858。

LADIESANDGENTLEMEN：IhavehadnoimmediateconferencewithJudgeDouglas，butIwillventuretosaythatheandIwillperfectlyagreethatyourentiresilence，bothwhenIspeakandwhenhespeaks，willbemostagreeabletous。

InthemonthofMay，1856，theelementsintheStateofIllinoiswhichhavesincebeenconsolidatedintotheRepublicanpartyassembledtogetherinaStateConventionatBloomington。Theyadoptedatthattimewhat，inpoliticallanguage，iscalledaplatform。InJuneofthesameyeartheelementsoftheRepublicanpartyinthenationassembledtogetherinaNationalConventionatPhiladelphia。TheyadoptedwhatiscalledtheNationalPlatform。InJune，1858，——thepresentyear，——theRepublicansofIllinoisreassembledatSpringfield，inStateConvention，andadoptedagaintheirplatform，asIsupposenotdifferinginanyessentialparticularfromeitheroftheformerones，butperhapsaddingsomethinginrelationtothenewdevelopmentsofpoliticalprogressinthecountry。

TheConventionthatassembledinJunelastdidmethehonor，ifitbeone，andIesteemitsuch，tonominatemeastheircandidatefortheUnitedStatesSenate。Ihavesupposedthat，inenteringuponthiscanvass，Istoodgenerallyupontheseplatforms。Wearenowmettogetheronthe13thofOctoberofthesameyear，onlyfourmonthsfromtheadoptionofthelastplatform，andIamunawarethatinthiscanvass，fromthebeginninguntilto—day，anyoneofouradversarieshastakenholdofourplatforms，orlaidhisfingeruponanythingthathecallswronginthem。

IntheveryfirstoneofthesejointdiscussionsbetweenSenatorDouglasandmyself，SenatorDouglas，withoutalludingatalltotheseplatforms，oranyoneofthem，ofwhichIhavespoken，attemptedtoholdmeresponsibleforasetofresolutionspassedlongbeforethemeetingofeitheroneoftheseconventionsofwhichIhavespoken。

Andasagroundforholdingmeresponsiblefortheseresolutions，heassumedthattheyhadbeenpassedataStateConventionoftheRepublicanparty，andthatItookpartinthatConvention。Itwasdiscoveredafterwardthatthiswaserroneous，thattheresolutionswhichheendeavoredtoholdmeresponsibleforhadnotbeenpassedbyanyStateConventionanywhere，hadnotbeenpassedatSpringfield，wherehesupposedtheyhad，orassumedthattheyhad，andthattheyhadbeenpassedinnoconventioninwhichIhadtakenpart。TheJudge，nevertheless，wasnotwillingtogiveupthepointthathewasendeavoringtomakeuponme，andhethereforethoughttostillholdmetothepointthathewasendeavoringtomake，byshowingthattheresolutionsthathereadhadbeenpassedatalocalconventioninthenorthernpartoftheState，althoughitwasnotalocalconventionthatembracedmyresidenceatall，noronethatreached，asI

suppose，nearerthanonehundredandfiftyortwohundredmilesofwhereIwaswhenitmet，noroneinwhichItookanypartatall。Healsointroducedotherresolutions，passedatothermeetings，andbycombiningthewhole，althoughtheywereallantecedenttothetwoStateConventionsandtheoneNationalConventionIhavementioned，stillheinsisted，andnowinsists，asIunderstand，thatIaminsomewayresponsibleforthem。

AtJonesboro，onourthirdmeeting，IinsistedtotheJudgethatI

wasinnowayrightfullyheldresponsiblefortheproceedingsofthislocalmeetingorconvention，inwhichIhadtakennopart，andinwhichIwasinnowayembraced；butIinsistedtohimthatifhethoughtIwasresponsibleforeverymanoreverysetofmeneverywhere，whohappentobemyfriends，theruleoughttoworkbothways，andheoughttoberesponsiblefortheactsandresolutionsofallmenorsetsofmenwhowereorarenowhissupportersandfriends，andgavehimaprettylongstringofresolutions，passedbymenwhoarenowhisfriends，andannouncingdoctrinesforwhichhedoesnotdesiretobeheldresponsible。

ThisstilldoesnotsatisfyJudgeDouglas。Hestilladherestohisproposition，thatIamresponsibleforwhatsomeofmyfriendsindifferentpartsoftheStatehavedone，butthatheisnotresponsibleforwhathishavedone。Atleast，soIunderstandhim。

Butinadditiontothat，theJudge，atourmeetinginGalesburgh，lastweek，undertakestoestablishthatIamguiltyofaspeciesofdoubledealingwiththepublic；thatImakespeechesofacertainsortinthenorth，amongtheAbolitionists，whichIwouldnotmakeinthesouth，andthatImakespeechesofacertainsortinthesouthwhichIwouldnotmakeinthenorth。Iapprehend，inthecourseI

havemarkedoutformyself，thatIshallnothavetodwellatverygreatlengthuponthissubject。

AsthiswasdoneintheJudge’sopeningspeechatGalesburgh，Ihadanopportunity，asIhadthemiddlespeechthen，ofsayingsomethinginanswertoit。HebroughtforwardaquotationortwofromaspeechofminedeliveredatChicago，andthen，tocontrastwithit，hebroughtforwardanextractfromaspeechofmineatCharleston，inwhichheinsistedthatIwasgreatlyinconsistent，andinsistedthathisconclusionfollowed，thatIwasplayingadoublepart，andspeakinginoneregiononeway，andinanotherregionanotherway。I

havenottimenowtodwellonthisaslongasIwouldlike，andwishonlynowtorequotethatportionofmyspeechatCharlestonwhichtheJudgequoted，andthenmakesomecommentsuponit。ThishequotesfrommeasbeingdeliveredatCharleston，andIbelievecorrectly：

"Iwillsay，then，thatIamnot，noreverhavebeen，infavorofbringingaboutinanywaythesocialandpoliticalequalityofthewhiteandblackraces；thatIamnot，noreverhavebeen，infavorofmakingvotersorjurorsofnegroes，norofqualifyingthemtoholdoffice，nortointermarrywithwhitepeople；andIwillsay，inadditiontothis，thatthereisaphysicaldifferencebetweenthewhiteandblackraceswhichwillforeverforbidthetworaceslivingtogetherontermsofsocialandpoliticalequality。Andinasmuchastheycannotsolivewhiletheydoremaintogether，theremustbethepositionofsuperiorandinferior。Iamasmuchasanyothermaninfavorofhavingthesuperiorpositionassignedtothewhiterace。"

This，Ibelieve，istheentirequotationfromCharlestonspeech，asJudgeDouglasmadeithiscommentsareasfollows：

"Yes，hereyoufindmenwhohurrahforLincoln，andsayheisrightwhenhediscardsalldistinctionbetweenraces，orwhenhedeclaresthathediscardsthedoctrinethatthereissuchathingasasuperiorandinferiorrace；andAbolitionistsarerequiredandexpectedtovoteforMr。Lincolnbecausehegoesfortheequalityofraces，holdingthatintheDeclarationofIndependencethewhitemanandnegroweredeclaredequal，andendowedbydivinelawwithequality。AnddownSouth，withtheold—lineWhigs，withtheKentuckians，theVirginiansandtheTennesseeans，hetellsyouthatthereisaphysicaldifferencebetweentheraces，makingtheonesuperior，theotherinferior，andheisinfavorofmaintainingthesuperiorityofthewhiteraceoverthenegro。"

ThosearetheJudgescomments。Now，Iwishtoshowyouthatamonth，oronlylackingthreedaysofamonth，beforeImadethespeechatCharleston，whichtheJudgequotesfrom，hehadhimselfheardmesaysubstantiallythesamethingItwasinourfirstmeeting，atOttawa—

—andIwillsayawordaboutwhereitwas，andtheatmosphereitwasin，afterawhile——butatourfirstmeeting，atOttawa，Ireadanextractfromanoldspeechofmine，madenearlyfouryearsago，notmerelytoshowmysentiments，buttoshowthatmysentimentswerelongentertainedandopenlyexpressed；inwhichextractIexpresslydeclaredthatmyownfeelingswouldnotadmitasocialandpoliticalequalitybetweenthewhiteandblackraces，andthatevenifmyownfeelingswouldadmitofit，Istillknewthatthepublicsentimentofthecountrywouldnot，andthatsuchathingwasanutterimpossibility，orsubstantiallythat。Thatextractfrommyoldspeechthereportersbysomesortofaccidentpassedover，anditwasnotreported。Ilaynoblameuponanybody。IsupposetheythoughtthatIwouldhanditovertothem，anddroppedreportingwhileIwasgivingit，butafterwardwentawaywithoutgettingitfromme。Attheendofthatquotationfrommyoldspeech，whichIreadatOttawa，Imadethecommentswhichwerereportedatthattime，andwhichI

willnowread，andaskyoutonoticehowverynearlytheyarethesameasJudgeDouglassaysweredeliveredbymedowninEgypt。Afterreading，Iaddedthesewords：

"Now，gentlemen，Idon’twanttoreadatanygreatlength；butthisisthetruecomplexionofallIhaveeversaidinregardtotheinstitutionofslaveryortheblackrace，andthisisthewholeofit：anythingthatarguesmeintohisideaofperfectsocialandpoliticalequalitywiththenegro，isbutaspeciousandfantasticalarrangementofwordsbywhichamancanproveahorse—chestnuttobeachestnuthorse。Iwillsayhere，whileuponthissubject，thatI

havenopurpose，directlyorindirectly，tointerferewiththeinstitutionintheStateswhereitexists。IbelieveIhavenorighttodoso。Ihavenoinclinationtodoso。Ihavenopurposetointroducepoliticalandsocialequalitybetweenthewhiteandblackraces。