第16章

Idefyhimtoshowwhomhereferredto，ifnottothesehighfunctionariesintheFederalGovernment。Morethanthis，hesaysthearticlesinthatpaperandtheprovisionsoftheLecomptonConstitutionare"identical，"and，beingidentical，hearguesthattheauthorsareco—operatingandconspiringtogether。Hedoesnotusetheword"conspiring，"butwhatotherconstructioncanyouputuponit？Hewindsup：

"WhenIsawthatarticleintheUnionofthe17thofNovember，followedbytheglorificationoftheLecomptonConstitutiononthe18thofNovember，andthisclauseintheConstitutionassertingthedoctrinethataStatehasnorighttoprohibitslaverywithinitslimits，IsawthattherewasafatalblowbeingstruckatthesovereigntyoftheStatesofthisUnion。"

Iaskhimifallthisfusswasmadeovertheeditorofthisnewspaper。Itwouldbeaterribly"fatalblow"indeedwhichasinglemancouldstrike，whennoPresident，noCabinetofficer，nomemberofCongress，wasgivingstrengthandefficiencytothemovement。OutofrespecttoJudgeDouglas’sgoodsenseImustbelievehedidn’tmanufacturehisideaofthe"fatal"characterofthatblowoutofsuchamiserablescapegraceasherepresentsthateditortobe。ButtheJudge’seyeisfarthersouthnow。

Then，itwasverypeculiarlyanddecidedlynorth。Hishoperestedontheideaofvisitingthegreat"BlackRepublican"

party，andmakingitthetailofhisnewkite。HeknowshewasthenexpectingfromdaytodaytoturnRepublican，andplacehimselfattheheadofourorganization。Hehasfoundthatthesedespised"BlackRepublicans"estimatehimbyastandardwhichhehastaughtthemnonetoowell。Henceheiscrawlingbackintohisoldcamp，andyouwillfindhimeventuallyinstalledinfullfellowshipamongthosewhomhewasthenbattling，andwithwhomhenowpretendstobeatsuchfearfulvariance。

THIRDJOINTDEBATE，ATJONESBORO，SEPTEMBER15，1858

Mr。LINCOLN’SREPLY。

LADIESANDGENTLEMEN：——ThereisverymuchintheprinciplesthatJudgeDouglashashereenunciatedthatImostcordiallyapprove，andoverwhichIshallhavenocontroversywithhim。InsofarashehasinsistedthatalltheStateshavetherighttodoexactlyastheypleaseaboutalltheirdomesticrelations，includingthatofslavery，Iagreeentirelywithhim。HeplacesmewronginspiteofallIcantellhim，thoughIrepeatitagainandagain，insistingthatIhavenodifferencewithhimuponthissubject。Ihavemadeagreatmanyspeeches，someofwhichhavebeenprinted，anditwillbeutterlyimpossibleforhimtofindanythingthatIhaveeverputinprintcontrarytowhatInowsayuponthissubject。IholdmyselfunderconstitutionalobligationstoallowthepeopleinalltheStates，withoutinterference，directorindirect，todoexactlyastheyplease；

andIdenythatIhaveanyinclinationtointerferewiththem，eveniftherewerenosuchconstitutionalobligation。IcanonlysayagainthatIamplacedimproperly——altogetherimproperly，inspiteofallIcansay——whenitisinsistedthatIentertainanyothervieworpurposesinregardtothatmatter。

WhileIamuponthissubject，IwillmakesomeanswersbrieflytocertainpropositionsthatJudgeDouglashasput。Hesays，"Whycan’tthisUnionendurepermanentlyhalfslaveandhalffree？"I

havesaidthatIsupposeditcouldnot，andIwilltry，beforethisnewaudience，togivebrieflysomeofthereasonsforentertainingthatopinion。Anotherformofhisquestionis，"Whycan’tweletitstandasourfathersplacedit？"Thatistheexactdifficultybetweenus。IsaythatJudgeDouglasandhisfriendshavechangeditfromthepositioninwhichourfathersoriginallyplacedit。Isay，inthewayourfather’soriginallylefttheslaveryquestion，theinstitutionwasinthecourseofultimateextinction，andthepublicmindrestedinthebeliefthatitwasinthecourseofultimateextinction。IsaywhenthisgovernmentwasfirstestablisheditwasthepolicyofitsfounderstoprohibitthespreadofslaveryintothenewTerritoriesoftheUnitedStates，whereithadnotexisted。ButJudgeDouglasandhisfriendshavebrokenupthatpolicy，andplacedituponanewbasis，bywhichitistobecomenationalandperpetual。AllIhaveaskedordesiredanywhereisthatitshouldbeplacedbackagainuponthebasisthatthefathersofourgovernmentoriginallyplaceditupon。Ihavenodoubtthatitwouldbecomeextinct，foralltimetocome，ifwebutreadoptedthepolicyofthefathers，byrestrictingittothelimitsithasalreadycovered，restrictingitfromthenewTerritories。

Idonotwishtodwellatgreatlengthonthisbranchofthesubjectatthistime，butallowmetorepeatonethingthatI

havestatedbefore。Brooks——themanwhoassaultedSenatorSumnerontheflooroftheSenate，andwhowascomplimentedwithdinners，andsilverpitchers，andgold—headedcanes，andagoodmanyotherthingsforthatfeat——inoneofhisspeechesdeclaredthatwhenthisgovernmentwasoriginallyestablished，nobodyexpectedthattheinstitutionofslaverywouldlastuntilthisday。Thatwasbuttheopinionofoneman，butitwassuchanopinionaswecannevergetfromJudgeDouglasoranybodyinfavorofslavery，intheNorth，atall。YoucansometimesgetitfromaSouthernman。Hesaidatthesametimethattheframersofourgovernmentdidnothavetheknowledgethatexperiencehastaughtus；thatexperienceandtheinventionofthecotton—ginhavetaughtusthattheperpetuationofslaveryisanecessity。

Heinsisted，therefore，uponitsbeingchangedfromthebasisuponwhichthefathersofthegovernmentleftittothebasisofitsperpetuationandnationalization。

IinsistthatthisisthedifferencebetweenJudgeDouglasandmyself，——thatJudgeDouglasishelpingthatchangealong。I

insistuponthisgovernmentbeingplacedwhereourfathersoriginallyplacedit。

IrememberJudgeDouglasoncesaidthathesawtheevidencesonthestatutebooksofCongressofapolicyintheoriginofgovernmenttodivideslaveryandfreedombyageographicalline；

thathesawanindispositiontomaintainthatpolicy，andthereforehesetaboutstudyingupawaytosettletheinstitutionontherightbasis，——thebasiswhichhethoughtitoughttohavebeenplaceduponatfirst；andinthatspeechheconfessesthatheseekstoplaceit，notuponthebasisthatthefathersplaceditupon，butupononegottenupon"originalprinciples。"Whenheasksmewhywecannotgetalongwithitintheattitudewhereourfathersplacedit，hehadbetterclearuptheevidencesthathehashimselfchangeditfromthatbasis，thathehashimselfbeenchieflyinstrumentalinchangingthepolicyofthefathers。Anyonewhowillreadhisspeechofthe22doflastMarchwillseethathetheremakesanopenconfession，showingthathesetaboutfixingtheinstitutionuponanaltogetherdifferentsetofprinciples。IthinkIhavefullyansweredhimwhenheasksmewhywecannotletitaloneuponthebasiswhereourfathersleftit，byshowingthathehashimselfchangedthewholepolicyofthegovernmentinthatregard。

Now，fellow—citizens，inregardtothismatteraboutacontractthatwasmadebetweenJudgeTrumbullandmyself，andallthatlongportionofJudgeDouglas’sspeechonthissubject，——IwishsimplytosaywhatIhavesaidtohimbefore，thathecannotknowwhetheritistrueornot，andIdoknowthatthereisnotawordoftruthinit。AndIhavetoldhimsobefore。Idon’twantanyharshlanguageindulgedin，butIdonotknowhowtodealwiththispersistentinsistingonastorythatIknowtobeutterlywithouttruth。Itusedtobeafashionamongstmenthatwhenachargewasmade，somesortofproofwasbroughtforwardtoestablishit，andifnoproofwasfoundtoexist，thechargewasdropped。Idon’tknowhowtomeetthiskindofanargument。I

don’twanttohaveafightwithJudgeDouglas，andIhavenowayofmakinganargumentupintotheconsistencyofacorn—cobandstoppinghismouthwithit。AllIcandois——good—humoredly——tosaythat，fromthebeginningtotheendofallthatstoryaboutabargainbetweenJudgeTrumbullandmyself，thereisnotawordoftruthinit。Icanonlyaskhimtoshowsomesortofevidenceofthetruthofhisstory。HebringsforwardhereandreadsfromwhathecontendsisaspeechbyJamesH。Matheny，chargingsuchabargainbetweenTrumbullandmyself。MyownopinionisthatMathenydiddosomesuchimmoralthingastotellastorythatheknewnothingabout。Ibelievehedid。Icontradicteditinstantly，andithasbeencontradictedbyJudgeTrumbull，whilenobodyhasproducedanyproof，becausethereisnone。Now，whetherthespeechwhichtheJudgebringsforwardhereisreallytheoneMathenymade，Idonotknow，andIhopetheJudgewillpardonmefordoubtingthegenuinenessofthisdocument，sincehisproductionofthoseSpringfieldresolutionsatOttawa。Idonotwishtodwellatanygreatlengthuponthismatter。Icansaynothingwhenalongstorylikethisistold，exceptitisnottrue，anddemandthathewhoinsistsuponitshallproducesomeproof。Thatisallanymancando，andIleaveitinthatway，forIknowofnootherwayofdealingwithit。

[Inanargumentonthelinesof："Yes，youdid。——No，Ididnot。"Itbearsontheformertoprovehispoint，notonthenegativeto"prove"thathedidnot——evenifheeasilycandoso。]

TheJudgehasgoneoveralongaccountoftheoldWhigandDemocraticparties，anditconnectsitselfwiththischargeagainstTrumbullandmyself。Hesaysthattheyagreeduponacompromiseinregardtotheslaveryquestionin1850；thatinaNationalDemocraticConventionresolutionswerepassedtoabidebythatcompromiseasafinalityupontheslaveryquestion。HealsosaysthattheWhigpartyinNationalConventionagreedtoabidebyandregardasafinalitytheCompromiseof1850。I

understandtheJudgetobealtogetherrightaboutthat；I

understandthatpartofthehistoryofthecountryasstatedbyhimtobecorrectIrecollectthatI，asamemberofthatparty，acquiescedinthatcompromise。IrecollectinthePresidentialelectionwhichfollowed，whenwehadGeneralScottupforthepresidency，JudgeDouglaswasaroundberatingusWhigsasAbolitionists，preciselyashedoesto—day，——notabitofdifference。Ihaveoftenheardhim。WecoulddonothingwhentheoldWhigpartywasalivethatwasnotAbolitionism，butithasgotanextremelygoodnamesinceithaspassedaway。

[Italmostanaturallawthat，whendead——nomatterhowbadwewere——weareautomaticallybeatified。]

WhenthatCompromisewasmadeitdidnotrepealtheoldMissouriCompromise。ItleftaregionofUnitedStatesterritoryhalfaslargeasthepresentterritoryoftheUnitedStates，northofthelineof36degrees30minutes，inwhichslaverywasprohibitedbyActofCongress。ThisCompromisedidnotrepealthatone。Itdidnotaffectorproposetorepealit。ButatlastitbecameJudgeDouglas’sduty，ashethought(andIfindnofaultwithhim)，asChairmanoftheCommitteeonTerritories，tobringinabillfortheorganizationofaterritorialgovernment，——firstofone，thenoftwoTerritoriesnorthofthatline。Whenhedidso，itendedinhisinsertingaprovisionsubstantiallyrepealingtheMissouriCompromise。ThatwasbecausetheCompromiseof1850hadnotrepealedit。AndnowIaskwhyhecouldnothaveletthatCompromisealone？Wewerequietfromtheagitationoftheslaveryquestion。Weweremakingnofussaboutit。AllhadacquiescedintheCompromisemeasuresof1850。WeneverhadbeenseriouslydisturbedbyanyAbolitionagitationbeforethatperiod。WhenhecametoformgovernmentsfortheTerritoriesnorthofthelineof36degrees30minutes，whycouldhenothaveletthatmatterstandasitwasstanding？WasitnecessarytotheorganizationofaTerritory？Notatall。Iowalaynorthoftheline，andhadbeenorganizedasaTerritoryandcomeintotheUnionasaStatewithoutdisturbingthatCompromise。TherewasnosortofnecessityfordestroyingittoorganizetheseTerritories。But，gentlemen，itwouldtakeupallmytimetomeetallthelittlequibblingargumentsofJudgeDouglastoshowthattheMissouriCompromisewasrepealedbytheCompromiseof1850。Myownopinionis，thatacarefulinvestigationofalltheargumentstosustainthepositionthatthatCompromisewasvirtuallyrepealedbytheCompromiseof1850wouldshowthattheyarethemerestfallacies。IhavethereportthatJudgeDouglasfirstbroughtintoCongressatthetimeoftheintroductionoftheNebraskaBill，whichinitsoriginalformdidnotrepealtheMissouriCompromise，andhethereexpresslystatedthathehadforbornetodosobecauseithadnotbeendonebytheCompromiseof1850。Iclosethispartofthediscussiononmypartbyaskinghimthequestionagain，"Why，whenwehadpeaceundertheMissouriCompromise，couldyounothaveletitalone？"

IncomplainingofwhatIsaidinmyspeechatSpringfield，inwhichhesaysIacceptedmynominationforthesenatorship(where，bytheway，heisatfault，forifhewillexamineit，hewillfindnoacceptanceinit)，heagainquotesthatportioninwhichIsaidthat"ahousedividedagainstitselfcannotstand。"

Letmesayawordinregardtothatmatter。

HetriestopersuadeusthattheremustbeavarietyinthedifferentinstitutionsoftheStatesoftheUnion；thatthatvarietynecessarilyproceedsfromthevarietyofsoil，climate，ofthefaceofthecountry，andthedifferenceinthenaturalfeaturesoftheStates。Iagreetoallthat。Havetheseverymatterseverproducedanydifficultyamongstus？Notatall。

HaveweeverhadanyquarreloverthefactthattheyhavelawsinLouisianadesignedtoregulatethecommercethatspringsfromtheproductionofsugar？OrbecausewehaveadifferentclassrelativetotheproductionofflourinthisState？Havetheyproducedanydifferences？Notatall。TheyaretheverycementsofthisUnion。Theydon’tmakethehouseahousedividedagainstitself。TheyarethepropsthatholdupthehouseandsustaintheUnion。

Buthasitbeensowiththiselementofslavery？Havewenotalwayshadquarrelsanddifficultiesoverit？Andwhenwillweceasetohavequarrelsoverit？Likecausesproducelikeeffects。Itisworthwhiletoobservethatwehavegenerallyhadcomparativepeaceupontheslaveryquestion，andthattherehasbeennocauseforalarmuntilitwasexcitedbytheefforttospreaditintonewterritory。Wheneverithasbeenlimitedtoitspresentbounds，andtherehasbeennoefforttospreadit，therehasbeenpeace。Allthetroubleandconvulsionhasproceededfromeffortstospreaditovermoreterritory。ItwasthusatthedateoftheMissouriCompromise。ItwassoagainwiththeannexationofTexas；sowiththeterritoryacquiredbytheMexicanwar；anditissonow。Whenevertherehasbeenanefforttospreadit，therehasbeenagitationandresistance。

Now，Iappealtothisaudience(veryfewofwhomaremypoliticalfriends)，asnationalmen，whetherwehavereasontoexpectthattheagitationinregardtothissubjectwillceasewhilethecausesthattendtoreproduceagitationareactivelyatwork？

Willnotthesamecausethatproducedagitationin1820，whentheMissouriCompromisewasformed，thatwhichproducedtheagitationupontheannexationofTexas，andatothertimes，workoutthesameresultsalways？Doyouthinkthatthenatureofmanwillbechanged，thatthesamecausesthatproducedagitationatonetimewillnothavethesameeffectatanother？

Thishasbeentheresultsofarasmyobservationoftheslaveryquestionandmyreadinginhistoryextends。Whatrighthavewethentohopethatthetroublewillcease，——thattheagitationwillcometoanend，——untilitshalleitherbeplacedbackwhereitoriginallystood，andwherethefathersoriginallyplacedit，or，ontheotherhand，untilitshallentirelymasterallopposition？ThisistheviewIentertain，andthisisthereasonwhyIentertainedit，asJudgeDouglashasreadfrommySpringfieldspeech。

Now，myfriends，thereisoneotherthingthatIfeelmyselfundersomesortofobligationtomention。JudgeDouglashashereto—day——inaveryramblingway，Iwasaboutsaying——spokenoftheplatformsforwhichheseekstoholdmeresponsible。Hesays，"Whycan’tyoucomeoutandmakeanopenavowalofprinciplesinallplacesalike？"andhereadsfromanadvertisementthathesayswasusedtonotifythepeopleofaspeechtobemadebyJudgeTrumbullatWaterloo。Incommentingonithedesirestoknowwhetherwecannotspeakfranklyandmanfully，asheandhisfriendsdo。How，Iask，dohisfriendsspeakouttheirownsentiments？AConventionofhispartyinthisStatemetonthe21stofAprilatSpringfield，andpassedasetofresolutionswhichtheyproclaimtothecountryastheirplatform。Thisdoesconstitutetheirplatform，anditisbecauseJudgeDouglasclaimsitishisplatform——thatthesearehisprinciplesandpurposes——

thathehasarighttodeclarehespeakshissentiments"franklyandmanfully。"Onthe9thofJuneColonelJohnDougherty，GovernorReynolds，andothers，callingthemselvesNationalDemocrats，metinSpringfieldandadoptedasetofresolutionswhichareaseasilyunderstood，asplainandasdefiniteinstatingtothecountryandtotheworldwhattheybelievedinandwouldstandupon，asJudgeDouglas’splatformNow，whatisthereasonthatJudgeDouglasisnotwillingthatColonelDoughertyandGovernorReynoldsshouldstandupontheirownwrittenandprintedplatformaswellasheuponhis？Whymusthelookfartherthantheirplatformwhenheclaimshimselftostandbyhisplatform？

Again，inreferencetoourplatform：Onthe16thofJunetheRepublicanshadtheirConventionandpublishedtheirplatform，whichisasclearanddistinctasJudgeDouglas’s。Inittheyspoketheirprinciplesasplainlyandasdefinitelytotheworld。

WhatisthereasonthatJudgeDouglasisnotwillingIshouldstanduponthatplatform？Whymusthegoaroundhuntingforsomeonewhoissupportingmeorhassupportedmeatsometimeinhislife，andwhohassaidsomethingatsometimecontrarytothatplatform？DoestheJudgeregardthatruleasagoodone？Ifitturnoutthattheruleisagoodoneforme——thatIamresponsibleforanyandeveryopinionthatanymanhasexpressedwhoismyfriend，——thenitisagoodruleforhim。Iask，isitnotasgoodaruleforhimasitisforme？Inmyopinion，itisnotagoodruleforeitherofus。Doyouthinkdifferently，Judge？

[Mr。DOUGLAS：Idonot。]

JudgeDouglassayshedoesnotthinkdifferently。Iamgladofit。Thencanhetellmewhyheislookingupresolutionsoffiveorsixyearsago，andinsistingthattheyweremyplatform，notwithstandingmyprotestthattheyarenot，andneverweremyplatform，andmypointingouttheplatformoftheStateConventionwhichhedelightstosaynominatedmefortheSenate？

Icannotseewhathemeansbyparadingtheseresolutions，ifitisnottoholdmeresponsiblefortheminsomeway。Ifhesaystomeherethathedoesnotholdtheruletobegood，onewayortheother，Idonotcomprehendhowhecouldanswermemorefullyifheansweredmeatgreaterlength。Iwillthereforeputinasmyanswertotheresolutionsthathehashuntedupagainstme，whatI，asalawyer，wouldcallagoodpleatoabaddeclaration。

Iunderstandthatitisanaxiomoflawthatapoorpleamaybeagoodpleatoabaddeclaration。IthinkthattheopinionstheJudgebringsfromthosewhosupportme，yetdifferfromme，isabaddeclarationagainstme；butifIcanbringthesamethingsagainsthim，Iamputtinginagoodpleatothatkindofdeclaration，andnowIproposetotryit。

AtFreeport，JudgeDouglasoccupiedalargepartofhistimeinproducingresolutionsanddocumentsofvarioussorts，asI

understood，tomakemesomehowresponsibleforthem；andI

proposenowdoingalittleofthesamesortofthingforhim。In1850averyclevergentlemanbythenameofThompsonCampbell，apersonalfriendofJudgeDouglasandmyself，apoliticalfriendofJudgeDouglasandopponentofmine，wasacandidateforCongressintheGalenaDistrict。Hewasinterrogatedastohisviewsonthissameslaveryquestion。Ihaveherebeforemetheinterrogatories，andCampbell’sanswerstothem——Iwillreadthem：

INTERROGATORIES：

"1st。Willyou，ifelected，voteforandcordiallysupportabillprohibitingslaveryintheTerritoriesoftheUnitedStates？

"2d。WillyouvoteforandsupportabillabolishingslaveryintheDistrictofColumbia？

"3d。WillyouopposetheadmissionofanySlaveStateswhichmaybeformedoutofTexasortheTerritories？

"4th。WillyouvoteforandadvocatetherepealoftheFugitiveSlavelawpassedattherecentsessionofCongress？

"5th。WillyouadvocateandvotefortheelectionofaSpeakeroftheHouseofRepresentativeswhoshallbewillingtoorganizethecommitteesofthatHousesoastogivetheFreeStatestheirjustinfluenceinthebusinessoflegislation？

"6th。Whatareyourviews，notonlyastotheconstitutionalrightofCongresstoprohibittheslave—tradebetweentheStates，butalsoastotheexpediencyofexercisingthatrightimmediately？"

CAMPBELL’SREPLY。

"Tothefirstandsecondinterrogatories，Ianswerunequivocallyintheaffirmative。

"TothethirdinterrogatoryIreply，thatIamopposedtotheadmissionofanymoreSlaveStatesintotheUnion，thatmaybeformedoutofTexasoranyotherTerritory。

"TothefourthandfifthinterrogatoriesIunhesitatinglyanswerintheaffirmative。

"TothesixthinterrogatoryIreply，thatsolongastheSlaveStatescontinuetotreatslavesasarticlesofcommerce，theConstitutionconferspoweronCongresstopasslawsregulatingthatpeculiarCOMMERCE，andthattheprotectionofHumanRightsimperativelydemandstheinterpositionofeveryconstitutionalmeanstopreventthismostinhumanandiniquitoustraffic。

"T。CAMPBELL。"

IwanttosayherethatThompsonCampbellwaselectedtoCongressonthatplatform，astheDemocraticcandidateintheGalenaDistrict，againstMartinP。Sweet。

[JudgeDOUGLAS：Givemethedateoftheletter。]

ThetimeCampbellranwasin1850。Ihavenottheexactdatehere。Itwassometimein1850thattheseinterrogatorieswereputandtheanswergiven。CampbellwaselectedtoCongress，andservedouthisterm。Ithinkasecondelectioncameupbeforeheservedouthisterm，andhewasnotre—elected。Whetherdefeatedornotnominated，Idonotknow。[Mr。Campbellwasnominatedforre—electionbytheDemocraticparty，byacclamation。]AttheendofhistermhisverygoodfriendJudgeDouglasgothimahighofficefromPresidentPierce，andsenthimofftoCalifornia。Isnotthatthefact？JustattheendofhisterminCongressitappearsthatourmutualfriendJudgeDouglasgotourmutualfriendCampbellagoodoffice，andsenthimtoCaliforniauponit。Andnotonlyso，butonthe27thoflastmonth，whenJudgeDouglasandmyselfspokeatFreeportinjointdiscussion，therewashissamefriendCampbell，comeallthewayfromCalifornia，tohelptheJudgebeatme；andtherewaspoorMartinP。Sweetstandingontheplatform，tryingtohelppoormetobeelected。

ThatistrueofoneofJudgeDouglas’sfriends。

Soagain，inthatsameraceof1850，therewasaCongressionalConventionassembledatJoliet，anditnominatedR。S。MolonyforCongress，andunanimouslyadoptedthefollowingresolution：

"Resolved，Thatweareuncompromisinglyopposedtotheextensionofslavery；andwhilewewouldnotmakesuchoppositionagroundofinterferencewiththeinterestsoftheStateswhereitexists，yetwemoderatelybutfirmlyinsistthatitisthedutyofCongresstoopposeitsextensionintoTerritorynowfree，byallmeanscompatiblewiththeobligationsoftheConstitution，andwithgoodfaithtooursisterStates；thattheseprincipleswererecognizedbytheOrdinanceof1787，whichreceivedthesanctionofThomasJefferson，whoisacknowledgedbyalltobethegreatoracleandexpounderofourfaith。"

SubsequentlythesameinterrogatorieswerepropoundedtoDr。

MolonywhichhadbeenaddressedtoCampbellasabove，withtheexceptionofthe6th，respectingtheinterstateslavetrade，towhichDr。Molony，theDemocraticnomineeforCongress，repliedasfollows：

"Ireceivedthewritteninterrogatoriesthisday，and，asyouwillseebytheLaSalleDemocratandOttawaFreeTrader，ItookatPeruonthe5th，andatOttawaonthe7th，theaffirmativesideofinterrogatories1stand2d；andinrelationtotheadmissionofanymoreSlaveStatesfromFreeTerritory，mypositiontakenatthesemeetings，ascorrectlyreportedinsaidpapers，wasemphaticallyanddistinctlyopposedtoit。InrelationtotheadmissionofanymoreSlaveStatesfromTexas，whetherIshallgoagainstitornotwilldependupontheopinionthatImayhereafterformofthetruemeaningandnatureoftheresolutionsofannexation。If，bysaidresolutions，thehonorandgoodfaithofthenationispledgedtoadmitmoreSlaveStatesfromTexaswhenshe(Texas)mayapplyfortheadmissionofsuchState，thenIshould，ifinCongress，votefortheiradmission。ButifnotsoPLEDGEDandboundbysacredcontract，thenabillfortheadmissionofmoreSlaveStatesfromTexaswouldneverreceivemyvote。

"ToyourfourthinterrogatoryIanswermostdecidedlyintheaffirmative，andforreasonssetforthinmyreportedremarksatOttawalastMonday。

"ToyourfifthinterrogatoryIalsoreplyintheaffirmativemostcordially，andthatIwillusemyutmostexertionstosecurethenominationandelectionofamanwhowillaccomplishtheobjectsofsaidinterrogatories。ImostcordiallyapproveoftheresolutionsadoptedattheUnionmeetingheldatPrincetononthe27thSeptemberult。

"Yours，etc。，R。S。MOLONY。"

AllIhavetosayinregardtoDr。MolonyisthathewastheregularlynominatedDemocraticcandidateforCongressinhisdistrict；waselectedatthattime；attheendofhistermwasappointedtoaland—officeatDanville。(IneverheardanythingofJudgeDouglas’sinstrumentalityinthis。)Heheldthisofficeaconsiderabletime，andwhenwewereatFreeporttheotherdaytherewerehandbillsscatteredaboutnotifyingthepublicthatafterourdebatewasoverR。S。MolonywouldmakeaDemocraticspeechinfavorofJudgeDouglas。ThatisallIknowofmyownpersonalknowledge。Itisaddedheretothisresolution，andtrulyIbelieve，thatamongthosewhoparticipatedintheJolietConvention，andwhosupporteditsnominee，withhisplatformaslaiddownintheresolutionoftheConventionandinhisreplyasabovegiven，wecallatrandomthefollowingnames，allofwhicharerecognizedatthisdayasleadingDemocrats：

"CookCounty，——E。B。Williams，CharlesMcDonell，ArnoVoss，ThomasHoyne，IsaacCook。"

IreckonweoughttoexceptCook。

"F。C。Sherman。

"Will，——JoelA。Matteson，S。W。Bowen。

"Kane，——B。F。Hall，G。W。Renwick，A。M。Herrington，ElijahWilcox。

"McHenry，——W。M。Jackson，EnosW。Smith，NeilDonnelly。

LaSalle，——JohnHise，WilliamReddick。"

WilliamReddick！anotheroneofJudgeDouglas’sfriendsthatstoodonthestandwithhimatOttawa，atthetimetheJudgesaysmykneestrembledsothatIhadtobecarriedaway。Thenamesareallhere：

"DuPage，——NathanAllen。

"DeKalb，——Z。B。Mayo。"

HereisanothersetofresolutionswhichIthinkareappositetothematterinhand。

Onthe28thofFebruaryofthesameyearaDemocraticDistrictConventionwasheldatNapervilletonominateacandidateforCircuitJudge。AmongthedelegateswereBowenandKellyofWill；

CaptainNaper，H。H。Cody，NathanAllen，ofDuPage；W。M。

Jackson，J。M。Strode，P。W。Platt，andEnosW。SmithofMcHenry；

J。HorssnanandothersofWinnebago。ColonelStrodepresidedovertheConvention。Thefollowingresolutionswereunanimouslyadopted，——thefirstonmotionofP。W。Platt，thesecondonmotionofWilliamM。Jackson：

"Resolved，ThatthisConventionisinfavoroftheWilmotProviso，bothinPrincipleandPractice，andthatweknowofnogoodreasonwhyanypersonshouldopposethelargestlatitudeinFreeSoil，FreeTerritoryandFreespeech。

"Resolved，ThatintheopinionofthisConvention，thetimehasarrivedwhenallmenshouldbefree，whitesaswellasothers。"

[JudgeDOUGLAS：Whatisthedateofthoseresolutions？]

Iunderstanditwasin1850，butIdonotknowit。IdonotstateathingandsayIknowit，whenIdonot。ButIhavethehighestbeliefthatthisisso。Iknowofnowaytoarriveattheconclusionthatthereisanerrorinit。Imeantoputacasenostrongerthanthetruthwillallow。ButwhatIwasgoingtocommentuponisanextractfromanewspaperinDeKalbCounty；

anditstrikesmeasbeingrathersingular，Iconfess，underthecircumstances。ThereisaJudgeMayointhatcounty，whoisacandidatefortheLegislature，forthepurpose，ifhesecureshiselection，ofhelpingtore—electJudgeDouglas。Heistheeditorofanewspaper[DeKalbCountySentinel]，andinthatpaperI

findtheextractIamgoingtoread。ItispartofaneditorialarticleinwhichhewaselectioneeringasfiercelyashecouldforJudgeDouglasandagainstme。Itwasacuriousthing，I

think，tobeinsuchapaper。Iwillagreetothat，andtheJudgemaymakethemostofit：

"Oureducationhasbeensuchthatwehavebeenratherinfavoroftheequalityoftheblacks；thatis，thattheyshouldenjoyalltheprivilegesofthewhiteswheretheyreside。Weareawarethatthisisnotaverypopulardoctrine。Wehavehadmanyaconfabwithsomewhoarenowstrong’Republicans’wetakingthebroadgroundofequality，andtheytheoppositeground。

"WewerebroughtupinaStatewhereblackswerevoters，andwedonotknowofanyinconvenienceresultingfromit，thoughperhapsitwouldnotworkaswellwheretheblacksaremorenumerous。Wehavenodoubtoftherightofthewhitestoguardagainstsuchanevil，ifitisone。OuropinionisthatitwouldbebestforallconcernedtohavethecoloredpopulationinaStatebythemselves[inthisIagreewithhim]；butifwithinthejurisdictionoftheUnitedStates，wesaybyallmeanstheyshouldhavetherighttohavetheirSenatorsandRepresentativesinCongress，andtovoteforPresident。Withus’worthmakestheman，andwantofitthefellow。’Wehaveseenmanya’nigger’

thatwethoughtmoreofthansomewhitemen。"

ThatisoneofJudgeDouglas’sfriends。Now，IdonotwanttoleavemyselfinanattitudewhereIcanbemisrepresented，soI

willsayIdonotthinktheJudgeisresponsibleforthisarticle；butheisquiteasresponsibleforitasIwouldbeifoneofmyfriendshadsaidit。Ithinkthatisfairenough。

IhaveherealsoasetofresolutionspassedbyaDemocraticStateConventioninJudgeDouglas’sowngoodStateofVermont，thatIthinkoughttobegoodforhimtoo：

"Resolved，Thatlibertyisarightinherentandinalienableinman，andthathereinallmenareequal。

"Resolved，ThatweclaimnoauthorityintheFederalGovernmenttoabolishslaveryintheseveralStates，butwedoclaimforitConstitutionalpowerperpetuallytoprohibittheintroductionofslaveryintoterritorynowfree，andabolishitwherever，underthejurisdictionofCongress，itexists。

"Resolved，ThatthispoweroughtimmediatelytobeexercisedinprohibitingtheintroductionandexistenceofslaveryinNewMexicoandCalifornia，inabolishingslaveryandtheslave—tradeintheDistrictofColumbia，onthehighseas，andwhereverelse，undertheConstitution，itcanbereached。

"Resolved，ThatnomoreSlaveStatesshouldbeadmittedintotheFederalUnion。

"Resolved，ThattheGovernmentoughttoreturntoitsancientpolicy，nottoextend，nationalize，orencourage，buttolimit，localize，anddiscourageslavery。"

AtFreeportIansweredseveralinterrogatoriesthathadbeenpropoundedtomebyJudgeDouglasattheOttawameeting。TheJudgehasnotyetseenfittofindanyfaultwiththepositionthatItookinregardtothoseseveninterrogatories，whichwerecertainlybroadenough，inallconscience，tocovertheentireground。Inmyanswers，whichhavebeenprinted，andallhavehadtheopportunityofseeing，ItakethegroundthatthosewhoelectmemustexpectthatIwilldonothingwhichwillnotbeinaccordancewiththoseanswers。IhavesomerighttoassertthatJudgeDouglashasnofaulttofindwiththem。Buthechoosestostilltrytothrustmeupondifferentground，withoutpayinganyattentiontomyanswers，theobtainingofwhichfrommecosthimsomuchtroubleandconcern。AtthesametimeIpropoundedfourinterrogatoriestohim，claimingitasarightthatheshouldanswerasmanyinterrogatoriesformeasIdidforhim，andI

wouldreservemyselfforafutureinstalmentwhenIgotthemready。TheJudge，inansweringmeuponthatoccasion，putinwhatIsupposeheintendsasanswerstoallfourofmyinterrogatories。ThefirstoneoftheseinterrogatoriesIhavebeforeme，anditisinthesewords：

"Question1。——IfthepeopleofKansasshall，bymeansentirelyunobjectionableinallotherrespects，adoptaStateconstitution，andaskadmissionintotheUnionunderit，beforetheyhavetherequisitenumberofinhabitantsaccordingtotheEnglishbill，"—someninety—threethousand，—"willyouvotetoadmitthem？"

AsIreadtheJudge’sanswerinthenewspaper，andasIrememberitaspronouncedatthetime，hedoesnotgiveanyanswerwhichisequivalenttoyesorno，——IwillorIwon’t。Heanswersatveryconsiderablelength，ratherquarrelingwithmeforaskingthequestion，andinsistingthatJudgeTrumbullhaddonesomethingthatIoughttosaysomethingabout，andfinallygettingoutsuchstatementsasinducemetoinferthathemeanstobeunderstoodhewill，inthatsupposedcase，votefortheadmissionofKansas。Ionlybringthisforwardnowforthepurposeofsayingthatifhechoosestoputadifferentconstructionuponhisanswer，hemaydoit。Butifhedoesnot，IshallfromthistimeforwardassumethathewillvotefortheadmissionofKansasindisregardoftheEnglishbill。HehastherighttoremoveanymisunderstandingImayhave。Ionlymentionitnow，thatImayhereafterassumethistobethetrueconstructionofhisanswer，ifhedoesnotnowchoosetocorrectme。

ThesecondinterrogatorythatIpropoundedtohimwasthis：

"Question2。——CanthepeopleofaUnitedStatesTerritory，inanylawfulway，againstthewishofanycitizenoftheUnitedStates，excludeslaveryfromitslimitspriortotheformationofaStateConstitution？"

TothisJudgeDouglasansweredthattheycanlawfullyexcludeslaveryfromtheTerritorypriortotheformationofaconstitution。Hegoesontotellushowitcanbedone。AsI

understandhim，heholdsthatitcanbedonebytheTerritorialLegislaturerefusingtomakeanyenactmentsfortheprotectionofslaveryintheTerritory，andespeciallybyadoptingunfriendlylegislationtoit。Forthesakeofclearness，Istateitagain：

thattheycanexcludeslaveryfromtheTerritory，1st，bywithholdingwhatheassumestobeanindispensableassistancetoitinthewayoflegislation；and，2d，byunfriendlylegislation。

IfIrightlyunderstandhim，Iwishtoaskyourattentionforawhiletohisposition。

Inthefirstplace，theSupremeCourtoftheUnitedStateshasdecidedthatanyCongressionalprohibitionofslaveryintheTerritoriesisunconstitutional；thattheyhavereachedthispropositionasaconclusionfromtheirformerproposition，thattheConstitutionoftheUnitedStatesexpresslyrecognizespropertyinslaves，andfromthatotherConstitutionalprovision，thatnopersonshallbedeprivedofpropertywithoutdueprocessoflaw。HencetheyreachtheconclusionthatastheConstitutionoftheUnitedStatesexpresslyrecognizespropertyinslaves，andprohibitsanypersonfrombeingdeprivedofpropertywithoutdueprocessoflaw，topassanActofCongressbywhichamanwhoownedaslaveononesideofalinewouldbedeprivedofhimifhetookhimontheotherside，isdeprivinghimofthatpropertywithoutdueprocessoflaw。ThatIunderstandtobethedecisionoftheSupremeCourt。IunderstandalsothatJudgeDouglasadheresmostfirmlytothatdecision；andthedifficultyis，howisitpossibleforanypowertoexcludeslaveryfromtheTerritory，unlessinviolationofthatdecision？Thatisthedifficulty。

IntheSenateoftheUnitedStates，in1850，JudgeTrumbull，inaspeechsubstantially，ifnotdirectly，putthesameinterrogatorytoJudgeDouglas，astowhetherthepeopleofaTerritoryhadthelawfulpowertoexcludeslaverypriortotheformationofaconstitution。JudgeDouglasthenansweredatconsiderablelength，andhisanswerwillbefoundintheCongressiona1Globe，underdateofJune9th，1856。TheJudgesaidthatwhetherthepeoplecouldexcludeslaverypriortotheformationofaconstitutionornotwasaquestiontobedecidedbytheSupremeCourt。Heputthatproposition，aswillbeseenbytheCongressionalGlobe，inavarietyofforms，allrunningtothesamethinginsubstance，——thatitwasaquestionfortheSupremeCourt。Imaintainthatwhenhesays，aftertheSupremeCourthavedecidedthequestion，thatthepeoplemayyetexcludeslaverybyanymeanswhatever，hedoesvirtuallysaythatitisnotaquestionfortheSupremeCourt。Heshiftshisground。I

appealtoyouwhetherhedidnotsayitwasaquestionfortheSupremeCourt？HasnottheSupremeCourtdecidedthatquestion？

whenhenowsaysthepeoplemayexcludeslavery，doeshenotmakeitaquestionforthepeople？DoeshenotvirtuallyshifthisgroundandsaythatitisnotaquestionfortheCourt，butforthepeople？Thisisaverysimpleproposition，——averyplainandnakedone。Itseemstomethatthereisnodifficultyindecidingit。InavarietyofwayshesaidthatitwasaquestionfortheSupremeCourt。Hedidnotstopthentotellusthat，whatevertheSupremeCourtdecides，thepeoplecanbywithholdingnecessary"policeregulations"keepslaveryout。HedidnotmakeanysuchanswerIsubmittoyounowwhetherthenewstateofthecasehasnotinducedtheJudgetosheerawayfromhisoriginalground。Wouldnotthisbetheimpressionofeveryfair—mindedman？

Iholdthatthepropositionthatslaverycannotenteranewcountrywithoutpoliceregulationsishistoricallyfalse。Itisnottrueatall。Iholdthatthehistoryofthiscountryshowsthattheinstitutionofslaverywasoriginallyplanteduponthiscontinentwithoutthese"policeregulations，"whichtheJudgenowthinksnecessaryfortheactualestablishmentofit。Notonlyso，butistherenotanotherfact：howcamethisDredScottdecisiontobemade？ItwasmadeuponthecaseofanegrobeingtakenandactuallyheldinslaveryinMinnesotaTerritory，claiminghisfreedombecausetheActofCongressprohibitedhisbeingsoheldthere。WilltheJudgepretendthatDredScottwasnotheldtherewithoutpoliceregulations？ThereisatleastonematterofrecordastohishavingbeenheldinslaveryintheTerritory，notonlywithoutpoliceregulations，butintheteethofCongressionallegislationsupposedtobevalidatthetime。

Thisshowsthatthereisvigorenoughinslaverytoplantitselfinanewcountryevenagainstunfriendlylegislation。Ittakesnotonlylaw，buttheenforcementoflawtokeepitout。Thatisthehistoryofthiscountryuponthesubject。

Iwishtoaskoneotherquestion。ItbeingunderstoodthattheConstitutionoftheUnitedStatesguaranteespropertyinslavesintheTerritories，ifthereisanyinfringementoftherightofthatproperty，wouldnottheUnitedStatescourts，organizedforthegovernmentoftheTerritory，applysuchremedyasmightbenecessaryinthatcase？Itisamaximheldbythecourtsthatthereisnowrongwithoutitsremedy；andthecourtshavearemedyforwhateverisacknowledgedandtreatedasawrong。

Again：Iwillaskyou，myfriends，ifyouwereelectedmembersoftheLegislature，whatwouldbethefirstthingyouwouldhavetodobeforeenteringuponyourduties？SweartosupporttheConstitutionoftheUnitedStates。Supposeyoubelieve，asJudgeDouglasdoes，thattheConstitutionoftheUnitedStatesguaranteestoyourneighbortherighttoholdslavesinthatTerritory；thattheyarehisproperty：howcanyouclearyouroathsunlessyougivehimsuchlegislationasisnecessarytoenablehimtoenjoythatproperty？WhatdoyouunderstandbysupportingtheConstitutionofaState，oroftheUnitedStates？

IsitnottogivesuchconstitutionalhelpstotherightsestablishedbythatConstitutionasmaybepracticallyneeded？

Canyou，ifyousweartosupporttheConstitution，andbelievethattheConstitutionestablishesaright，clearyouroath，withoutgivingitsupport？DoyousupporttheConstitutionif，knowingorbelievingthereisarightestablishedunderitwhichneedsspecificlegislation，youwithholdthatlegislation？Doyounotviolateanddisregardyouroath？Icanconceiveofnothingplainerintheworld。Therecanbenothinginthewords"supporttheConstitution，"ifyoumayruncountertoitbyrefusingsupporttoanyrightestablishedundertheConstitution。

AndwhatIsayherewillholdwithstillmoreforceagainsttheJudge’sdoctrineof"unfriendlylegislation。"Howcouldyou，havingsworntosupporttheConstitution，andbelievingitguaranteedtherighttoholdslavesintheTerritories，assistinlegislationintendedtodefeatthatright？ThatwouldbeviolatingyourownviewoftheConstitution。Notonlyso，butifyouweretodoso，howlongwouldittakethecourtstoholdyourvotesunconstitutionalandvoid？Notamoment。

Lastly，Iwouldask：IsnotCongressitselfunderobligationtogivelegislativesupporttoanyrightthatisestablishedundertheUnitedStatesConstitution？Irepeatthequestion：IsnotCongressitselfboundtogivelegislativesupporttoanyrightthatisestablishedintheUnitedStatesConstitution？AmemberofCongressswearstosupporttheConstitutionoftheUnitedStates：andifheseesarightestablishedbythatConstitutionwhichneedsspecificlegislativeprotection，canheclearhisoathwithoutgivingthatprotection？LetmeaskyouwhymanyofuswhoareopposedtoslaveryuponprinciplegiveouracquiescencetoaFugitiveSlavelaw？Whydoweholdourselvesunderobligationstopasssuchalaw，andabidebyitwhenitispassed？BecausetheConstitutionmakesprovisionthattheownersofslavesshallhavetherighttoreclaimthem。Itgivestherighttoreclaimslaves；andthatrightis，asJudgeDouglassays，abarrenright，unlessthereislegislationthatwillenforceit。

Themeredeclaration，"NopersonheldtoserviceorlaborinoneStateunderthelawsthereof，escapingintoanother，shallinconsequenceofanylaworregulationthereinbedischargedfromsuchserviceorlabor，butshallbedelivereduponclaimofthepartytowhomsuchserviceorlabormaybedue，"ispowerlesswithoutspecificlegislationtoenforceit。"Now，onwhatgroundwouldamemberofCongress，whoisopposedtoslaveryintheabstract，voteforaFugitivelaw，asIwoulddeemitmydutytodo？Becausethereisaconstitutionalrightwhichneedslegislationtoenforceit。Andalthoughitisdistastefultome，IhavesworntosupporttheConstitution；andhavingsosworn，I

cannotconceivethatIdosupportitifIwithholdfromthatrightanynecessarylegislationtomakeitpractical。AndifthatistrueinregardtoaFugitiveSlavelaw，istherighttohavefugitiveslavesreclaimedanybetterfixedintheConstitutionthantherighttoholdslavesintheTerritories？

ForthisdecisionisajustexpositionoftheConstitution，asJudgeDouglasthinks。Istheonerightanybetterthantheother？Isthereanymanwho，whileamemberofCongress，wouldgivesupporttotheoneanymorethantheother？IfIwishedtorefusetogivelegislativesupporttoslavepropertyintheTerritories，ifamemberofCongress，Icouldnotdoit，holdingtheviewthattheConstitutionestablishesthatright。IfIdiditatall，itwouldbebecauseIdenythatthisdecisionproperlyconstruestheConstitution。ButifIacknowledge，withJudgeDouglas，thatthisdecisionproperlyconstruestheConstitution，IcannotconceivethatIwouldbelessthanaperjuredmanifI

shouldrefuseinCongresstogivesuchprotectiontothatpropertyasinitsnatureitneeded。

AttheendofwhatIhavesaidhereIproposetogivetheJudgemyfifthinterrogatory，whichhemaytakeandanswerathisleisure。Myfifthinterrogatoryisthis：

IftheslaveholdingcitizensofaUnitedStatesTerritoryshouldneedanddemandCongressionallegislationfortheprotectionoftheirslavepropertyinsuchTerritory，wouldyou，asamemberofCongress，votefororagainstsuchlegislation？

[JudgeDOUGLAS：Willyourepeatthat？Iwanttoanswerthatquestion。]

IftheslaveholdingcitizensofaUnitedStatesTerritoryshouldneedanddemandCongressionallegislationfortheprotectionoftheirslavepropertyinsuchTerritory，wouldyou，asamemberofCongress，votefororagainstsuchlegislation？

IamawarethatinsomeofthespeechesJudgeDouglashasmade，hehasspokenasifhedidnotknoworthinkthattheSupremeCourthaddecidedthataTerritorialLegislaturecannotexcludeslavery。PreciselywhattheJudgewouldsayuponthesubject——

whetherhewouldsaydefinitelythathedoesnotunderstandtheyhavesodecided，orwhetherhewouldsayhedoesunderstandthatthecourthavesodecided，——Idonotknow；butIknowthatinhisspeechatSpringfieldhespokeofitasathingtheyhadnotdecidedyet；andinhisanswertomeatFreeport，hespokeofit，sofar，again，asIcancomprehendit，asathingthathadnotyetbeendecided。Now，IholdthatiftheJudgedoesentertainthatview，Ithinkthatheisnotmistakeninsofarasitcanbesaidthatthecourthasnotdecidedanythingsavethemerequestionofjurisdiction。Iknowthelegalargumentsthatcanbemade，——thatafteracourthasdecidedthatitcannottakejurisdictioninacase，itthenhasdecidedallthatisbeforeit，andthatistheendofit。Aplausib1eargumentcanbemadeinfavorofthatproposition；butIknowthatJudgeDouglashassaidinoneofhisspeechesthatthecourtwentforward，likehonestmenastheywere，anddecidedallthepointsinthecase。

Ifanypointsarereallyextra—judiciallydecided，becausenotnecessarilybeforethem，thenthisoneastothepoweroftheTerritorialLegislature，toexcludeslaveryisoneofthem，asalsotheonethattheMissouriCompromisewasnullandvoid。

Theyarebothextra—judicial，orneitheris，accordingasthecourtheldthattheyhadnojurisdictioninthecasebetweentheparties，becauseofwantofcapacityofonepartytomaintainasuitinthatcourt。Iwant，ifIhavesufficienttime，toshowthatthecourtdidpassitsopinion；butthatistheonlythingactuallydoneinthecase。Iftheydidnotdecide，theyshowedwhattheywerereadytodecidewheneverthematterwasbeforethem。Whatisthatopinion？AfterhavingarguedthatCongresshadnopowertopassalawexcludingslaveryfromaUnitedStatesTerritory，theythenusedlanguagetothiseffect：ThatinasmuchasCongressitselfcouldnotexercisesuchapower，itfollowedasamatterofcoursethatitcouldnotauthorizeaTerritorialgovernmenttoexerciseit；fortheTerritorialLegislaturecandonomorethanCongresscoulddo。ThusitexpresseditsopinionemphaticallyagainstthepowerofaTerritorialLegislaturetoexcludeslavery，leavingusinjustaslittledoubtonthatpointasuponanyotherpointtheyreallydecided。

Now，myfellow—citizens，Iwilldetainyouonlyalittlewhilelonger；mytimeisnearlyout。IfindareportofaspeechmadebyJudgeDouglasatJoliet，sincewelastmetatFreeport，——

published，Ibelieve，intheMissouriRepublican，onthe9thofthismonth，inwhichJudgeDouglassays：

"YouknowatOttawaIreadthisplatform，andaskedhimifheconcurredineachandalloftheprinciplessetforthinit。Hewouldnotanswerthesequestions。AtlastIsaidfrankly，Iwishyoutoanswerthem，becausewhenIgetthemupherewherethecolorofyourprinciplesarealittledarkerthaninEgypt，I

intendtotrotyoudowntoJonesboro。TheverynoticethatIwasgoingtotakehimdowntoEgyptmadehimtrembleinhiskneessothathehadtobecarriedfromtheplatform。Helaidupsevendays，andinthemeantimeheldaconsultationwithhispoliticalphysicians；theyhadLovejoyandFarnsworthandalltheleadersoftheAbolitionparty，theyconsulteditallover，andatlastLincolncametotheconclusionthathewouldanswer，sohecameuptoFreeportlastFriday。"

Now，thatstatementaltogetherfurnishesasubjectforphilosophicalcontemplation。Ihavebeentreatingitinthatway，andIhavereallycometotheconclusionthatIcanexplainitinnootherwaythanbybelievingtheJudgeiscrazy。IfhewasinhisrightmindIcannotconceivehowhewouldhaveriskeddisgustingthefourorfivethousandofhisownfriendswhostoodthereandknew，astomyhavingbeencarriedfromtheplatform，thattherewasnotawordoftruthinit。

[JudgeDOUGLAS：Didn’ttheycarryyouoff？]

TherethatquestionillustratesthecharacterofthismanDouglasexactly。Hesmilesnow，andsays，"Didn’ttheycarryyouoff？"

buthesaidthen"hehadtobecarriedoff"；andhesaidittoconvincethecountrythathehadsocompletelybrokenmedownbyhisspeechthatIhadtobecarriedaway。Nowheseekstododgeit，andasks，"Didn’ttheycarryyouoff？"Yes，theydid。But，JudgeDouglas，whydidn’tyoutellthetruth？"Iwouldliketoknowwhyyoudidn’ttellthetruthaboutit。Andthenagain"Helaidupsevendays。"Heputthisinprintforthepeopleofthecountrytoreadasaseriousdocument。IthinkifhehadbeeninhissobersenseshewouldnothaveriskedthatbarefacednessinthepresenceofthousandsofhisownfriendswhoknewthatImadespeecheswithinsixofthesevendaysatHenry，MarshallCounty，Augusta，HancockCounty，andMacomb，McDonoughCounty，includingallthenecessarytraveltomeethimagainatFreeportattheendofthesixdays。NowIsaythereisnocharitablewaytolookatthatstatement，excepttoconcludethatheisactuallycrazy。

Thereisanotherthinginthatstatementthatalarmedmeverygreatlyashestatesit，thathewasgoingto"trotmedowntoEgypt。"TherebyhewouldhaveyouinferthatIwouldnotcometoEgyptunlessheforcedme——thatIcouldnotbegothereunlesshe，giant—like，hadhauledmedownhere。Thatstatementhemakes，too，intheteethoftheknowledgethatIhadmadethestipulationtocomedownhereandthathehimselfhadbeenveryreluctanttoenterintothestipulation。Morethanallthis：

JudgeDouglas，whenhemadethatstatement，musthavebeencrazyandwhollyoutofhissobersenses，orelsehewouldhaveknownthatwhenhegotmedownhere，thatpromise——thatwindypromise——

ofhispowerstoannihilateme，wouldn’tamounttoanything。

Now，howlittledoIlooklikebeingcarriedawaytrembling？LettheJudgegoon；andafterheisdonewithhishalf—hour，Iwantyouall，ifIcan’tgohomemyself，toletmestayandrothere；

andifanythinghappenstotheJudge，ifIcannotcarryhimtothehotelandputhimtobed，letmestayhereandrot。Isay，then，hereissomethingextraordinaryinthisstatement。Iaskyouifyouknowanyotherlivingmanwhowouldmakesuchastatement？IwillaskmyfriendCasey，overthere，ifhewoulddosuchathing？Wouldhesendthatoutandhavehismentakeitasthetruth？DidtheJudgetalkoftrottingmedowntoEgypttoscaremetodeath？Why，Iknowthispeoplebetterthanhedoes。

Iwasraisedjustalittleeastofhere。Iamapartofthispeople。ButtheJudgewasraisedfarthernorth，andperhapshehassomehorridideaofwhatthispeoplemightbeinducedtodo。

ButreallyIhavetalkedaboutthismatterperhapslongerthanI

ought，foritisnogreatthing；andyetthesmallestareoftenthemostdifficultthingstodealwith。TheJudgehassetaboutseriouslytryingtomaketheimpressionthatwhenwemeetatdifferentplacesIamliterallyinhisclutches——thatIamapoor，helpless，decrepitmouse，andthatIcandonothingatall。

Thisisoneofthewayshehastakentocreatethatimpression。

Idon’tknowanyotherwaytomeetitexceptthis。Idon’twanttoquarrelwithhim——tocallhimaliar；butwhenIcomesquareuptohimIdon’tknowwhatelsetocallhimifImusttellthetruthout。Iwanttobeatpeace，andreserveallmyfightingpowersfornecessaryoccasions。Mytimenowisverynearlyout，andIgiveupthetriflethatislefttotheJudge，tolethimsetmykneestremblingagain，ifhecan。

EndofVolume3

TheWritingsofAbrahamLincolnbyAbrahamLincolnVOLUMEIV

THELINCOLN—DOUGLASDEBATESII

LINCOLNANDDOUGLASFOURTHJOINTDEBATE，ATCHARLESTON，SEPTEMBER18，1858。

LADIESANDGENTLEMEN：——Itwillbeverydifficultforanaudiencesolargeasthistoheardistinctlywhataspeakersays，andconsequentlyitisimportantthatasprofoundsilencebepreservedaspossible。

WhileIwasatthehotelto—day，anelderlygentlemancalleduponmetoknowwhetherIwasreallyinfavorofproducingaperfectequalitybetweenthenegroesandwhitepeople。WhileIhadnotproposedtomyselfonthisoccasiontosaymuchonthatsubject，yetasthequestionwasaskedmeIthoughtIwouldoccupyperhapsfiveminutesinsayingsomethinginregardtoit。Iwillsay，then，thatIamnot，noreverhavebeen，infavorofbringingaboutinanywaythesocialandpoliticalequalityofthewhiteandblackraces；thatIamnot，noreverhavebeen，infavorofmakingvotersorjurorsofnegroes，norofqualifyingthemtoholdoffice，nortointermarrywithwhitepeople；andIwillsay，inadditiontothis，thatthereisaphysicaldifferencebetweenthewhiteandblackraceswhichI

believewillforeverforbidthetworaceslivingtogetherontermsofsocialandpoliticalequality。Andinasmuchastheycannotsolive，whiletheydoremaintogethertheremustbethepositionofsuperiorandinferior，andIasmuchasanyothermanaminfavorofhavingthesuperiorpositionassignedtothewhiterace。IsayuponthisoccasionIdonotperceivethatbecausethewhitemanistohavethesuperiorpositionthenegroshouldbedeniedeverything。IdonotunderstandthatbecauseIdonotwantanegrowomanforaslaveI

mustnecessarilywantherforawife。MyunderstandingisthatIcanjustletheralone。Iamnowinmyfiftiethyear，andIcertainlyneverhavehadablackwomanforeitheraslaveorawife。Soitseemstomequitepossibleforustogetalongwithoutmakingeitherslavesorwivesofnegroes。IwilladdtothisthatIhaveneverseen，tomyknowledge，aman，woman，orchildwhowasinfavorofproducingaperfectequality，socialandpolitical，betweennegroesandwhitemen。IrecollectofbutonedistinguishedinstancethatI

everheardofsofrequentlyastobeentirelysatisfiedofitscorrectness，andthatisthecaseofJudgeDouglas’soldfriendColonelRichardM。Johnson。IwillalsoaddtotheremarksIhavemade(forIamnotgoingtoenteratlargeuponthissubject)，thatI

haveneverhadtheleastapprehensionthatIormyfriendswouldmarrynegroesiftherewasnolawtokeepthemfromit；butasJudgeDouglasandhisfriendsseemtobeingreatapprehensionthattheymight，iftherewerenolawtokeepthemfromit，IgivehimthemostsolemnpledgethatIwilltotheverylaststandbythelawofthisStatewhichforbidsthemarryingofwhitepeoplewithnegroes。I

willaddonefurtherword，whichisthis：thatIdonotunderstandthatthereisanyplacewhereanalterationofthesocialandpoliticalrelationsofthenegroandthewhitemancanbemade，exceptintheStateLegislature，——notintheCongressoftheUnitedStates；andasIdonotreallyapprehendtheapproachofanysuchthingmyself，andasJudgeDouglasseemstobeinconstanthorrorthatsomesuchdangerisrapidlyapproaching，IproposeasthebestmeanstopreventitthattheJudgebekeptathome，andplacedintheStateLegislaturetofightthemeasure。Idonotproposedwellinglongeratthistimeonthissubject。

WhenJudgeTrumbull，ourotherSenatorinCongress，returnedtoIllinoisinthemonthofAugust，hemadeaspeechatChicago，inwhichhemadewhatmaybecalledachargeagainstJudgeDouglas，whichIunderstandprovedtobeveryoffensivetohim。TheJudgewasatthattimeoutupononeofhisspeakingtoursthroughthecountry，andwhenthenewsofitreachedhim，asIaminformed，hedenouncedJudgeTrumbullinratherharshtermsforhavingsaidwhathedidinregardtothatmatter。Iwastravelingatthattime，andspeakingatthesameplaceswithJudgeDouglasonsubsequentdays，andwhenI

heardofwhatJudgeTrumbullhadsaidofDouglas，andwhatDouglashadsaidbackagain，IfeltthatIwasinapositionwhereIcouldnotremainentirelysilentinregardtothematter。Consequently，upontwoorthreeoccasionsIalludedtoit，andalludedtoitinnootherwisethantosaythatinregardtothechargebroughtbyTrumbullagainstDouglas，Ipersonallyknewnothing，andsoughttosaynothingaboutit；thatIdidpersonallyknowJudgeTrumbull；thatIbelievedhimtobeamanofveracity；thatIbelievedhimtobeamanofcapacitysufficienttoknowverywellwhetheranassertionhewasmaking，asaconclusiondrawnfromasetoffacts，wastrueorfalse；andasaconclusionofmyownfromthat，IstateditasmybeliefifTrumbullshouldeverbecalledupon，hewouldproveeverythinghehadsaid。Isaidthisupontwoorthreeoccasions。

Uponasubsequentoccasion，JudgeTrumbullspokeagainbeforeanaudienceatAlton，anduponthatoccasionnotonlyrepeatedhischargeagainstDouglas，butarrayedtheevidencehereliedupontosubstantiateit。Thisspeechwaspublishedatlength；andsubsequentlyatJacksonvilleJudgeDouglasalludedtothematter。Inthecourseofhisspeech，andnearthecloseofit，hestatedinregardtomyselfwhatIwillnowread：

"JudgeDouglasproceededtoremarkthatheshouldnothereafteroccupyhistimeinrefutingsuchchargesmadebyTrumbull，butthat，LincolnhavingindorsedthecharacterofTrumbullforveracity，heshouldholdhim(Lincoln)responsiblefortheslanders。"

IhavedonesimplywhatIhavetoldyou，tosubjectmetothisinvitationtonoticethecharge。InowwishtosaythatithadnotoriginallybeenmypurposetodiscussthatmatteratallButin—as—

muchasitseemstobethewishofJudgeDouglastoholdmeresponsibleforit，thenforonceinmylifeIwillplayGeneralJackson，andtothejustextentItaketheresponsibility。

IwishtosayatthebeginningthatIwillhandtothereportersthatportionofJudgeTrumbull’sAltonspeechwhichwasdevotedtothismatter，andalsothatportionofJudgeDouglas’sspeechmadeatJacksonvilleinanswertoit。IshalltherebyfurnishthereadersofthisdebatewiththecompletediscussionbetweenTrumbullandDouglas。Icannotnowreadthem，forthereasonthatitwouldtakehalfofmyfirsthourtodoso。Icanonlymakesomecommentsuponthem。Trumbull’schargeisinthefollowingwords：

"Now，thechargeis，thattherewasaplotenteredintotohaveaconstitutionformedforKansas，andputinforce，withoutgivingthepeopleanopportunitytovoteuponit，andthatMr。Douglaswasintheplot。"

Iwillstate，withoutquotingfurther，forallwillhaveanopportunityofreadingithereafter，thatJudgeTrumbullbringsforwardwhatheregardsassufficientevidencetosubstantiatethischarge。

ItwillbeperceivedJudgeTrumbullshowsthatSenatorBigler，upontheflooroftheSenate，haddeclaredtherehadbeenaconferenceamongthesenators，inwhichconferenceitwasdeterminedtohaveanenablingactpassedforthepeopleofKansastoformaconstitutionunder，andinthisconferenceitwasagreedamongthemthatitwasbestnottohaveaprovisionforsubmittingtheconstitutiontoavoteofthepeopleafteritshouldbeformed。Hethenbringsforwardtoshow，andshowing，ashedeemed，thatJudgeDouglasreportedthebillbacktotheSenatewiththatclausestrickenout。Hethenshowsthattherewasanewclauseinsertedintothebill，whichwouldinitsnaturepreventareferenceoftheconstitutionbackforavoteofthepeople，——if，indeed，uponameresilenceinthelaw，itcouldbeassumedthattheyhadtherighttovoteuponit。Thesearethegeneralstatementsthathehasmade。

IproposetoexaminethepointsinJudgeDouglas’sspeechinwhichheattemptstoanswerthatspeechofJudgeTrumbull’s。WhenyoucometoexamineJudgeDouglas’sspeech，youwillfindthatthefirstpointhemakesis：

"Supposeitweretruethattherewassuchachangeinthebill，andthatIstruckitout，——isthataproofofaplottoforceaconstitutionuponthemagainsttheirwill？"

Hisstrikingoutsuchaprovision，iftherewassuchaoneinthebill，heargues，doesnotestablishtheproofthatitwasstrickenoutforthepurposeofrobbingthepeopleofthatright。Iwouldsay，inthefirstplace，thatthatwouldbeamostmanifestreasonforit。Itistrue，asJudgeDouglasstates，thatmanyTerritorialbillshavepassedwithouthavingsuchaprovisioninthem。Ibelieveitistrue，thoughIamnotcertain，thatinsomeinstancesconstitutionsframedundersuchbillshavebeensubmittedtoavoteofthepeoplewiththelawsilentuponthesubject；butitdoesnotappearthattheyoncehadtheirenablingactsframedwithanexpressprovisionforsubmittingtheconstitutiontobeframedtoavoteofthepeople，thenthattheywerestrickenoutwhenCongressdidnotmeantoaltertheeffectofthelaw。Thattherehavebeenbillswhichneverhadtheprovisionin，Idonotquestion；butwhenwasthatprovisiontakenoutofonethatitwasin？MoreespeciallydoestheevidencetendtoprovethepropositionthatTrumbulladvanced，whenwerememberthattheprovisionwasstrickenoutofthebillalmostsimultaneouslywiththetimethatBiglersaystherewasaconferenceamongcertainsenators，andinwhichitwasagreedthatabillshouldbepassedleavingthatout。JudgeDouglas，inansweringTrumbull，omitstoattendtothetestimonyofBigler，thattherewasameetinginwhichitwasagreedtheyshouldsoframethebillthatthereshouldbenosubmissionoftheconstitutiontoavoteofthepeople。TheJudgedoesnotnoticethispartofit。Ifyoutakethisasonepieceofevidence，andthenascertainthatsimultaneouslyJudgeDouglasstruckoutaprovisionthatdidrequireittobesubmitted，andputthetwotogether，IthinkitwillmakeaprettyfairshowofproofthatJudgeDouglasdid，asTrumbullsays，enterintoaplottoputinforceaconstitutionforKansas，withoutgivingthepeopleanyopportunityofvotinguponit。

ButImusthurryon。ThenextpropositionthatJudgeDouglasputsisthis：

"ButuponexaminationitturnsoutthattheToombsbillneverdidcontainaclauserequiringtheconstitutiontobesubmitted。"

Thisisamerequestionoffact，andcanbedeterminedbyevidence。

Ionlywanttoaskthisquestion：WhydidnotJudgeDouglassaythatthesewordswerenotstrickenoutoftheToomb’sbill，orthisbillfromwhichitisallegedtheprovisionwasstrickenout，——abillwhichgoesbythenameofToomb’s，becauseheoriginallybroughtitforward？Iaskwhy，iftheJudgewantedtomakeadirectissuewithTrumbull，didhenottaketheexactpropositionTrumbullmadeinhisspeech，andsayitwasnotstrickenout？TrumbullhasgiventheexactwordsthathesayswereintheToomb’sbill，andheallegesthatwhenthebillcameback，theywerestrickenout。JudgeDouglasdoesnotsaythatthewordswhichTrumbullsayswerestrickenoutwerenotsostrickenout，buthesaystherewasnoprovisionintheToomb’sbilltosubmittheconstitutiontoavoteofthepeople。Weseeatoncethatheismerelymakinganissueuponthemeaningofthewords。HehasnotundertakentosaythatTrumbulltellsalieaboutthesewordsbeingstrickenout，butheisreally，whenpusheduptoit，onlytakinganissueuponthemeaningofthewords。Now，then，iftherebeanyissueuponthemeaningofthewords，oriftherebeuponthequestionoffactastowhetherthesewordswerestrickenout，IhavebeforemewhatIsupposetobeagenuinecopyoftheToomb’sbill，inwhichitcanbeshownthatthewordsTrumbullsayswereinitwere，infact，originallythere。Iftherebeanydisputeuponthefact，Ihavegotthedocumentsheretoshowtheywerethere。

Iftherebeanycontroversyuponthesenseofthewords，——whetherthesewordswhichwerestrickenoutreallyconstitutedaprovisionforsubmittingthemattertoavoteofthepeople，——asthatisamatterofargument，IthinkImayaswelluseTrumbull’sownargument。Hesaysthatthepropositionisinthesewords：

"ThatthefollowingpropositionsbeandthesameareherebyofferedtothesaidConventionofthepeopleofKansaswhenformed，fortheirfreeacceptanceorrejection；which，ifacceptedbytheConventionandratifiedbythepeopleattheelectionfortheadoptionoftheconstitution，shallbeobligatoryupontheUnitedStatesandthesaidStateofKansas。"

Now，Trumbullallegesthattheselastwordswerestrickenoutofthebillwhenitcameback，andhesaysthiswasaprovisionforsubmittingtheconstitutiontoavoteofthepeople；andhisargumentisthis：

"Wouldithavebeenpossibletoratifythelandpropositionsattheelectionfortheadoptionoftheconstitution，unlesssuchanelectionwastobeheld？"

ThisisTrumbull’sargument。Now，JudgeDouglasdoesnotmeetthechargeatall，buthestandsupandsaystherewasnosuchpropositioninthatbillforsubmittingtheconstitutiontobeframedtoavoteofthepeople。Trumbulladmitsthatthelanguageisnotadirectprovisionforsubmittingit，butitisaprovisionnecessarilyimpliedfromanotherprovision。Heasksyouhowitispossibletoratifythelandpropositionattheelectionfortheadoptionoftheconstitution，iftherewasnoelectiontobeheldfortheadoptionoftheconstitution。Andhegoesontoshowthatitisnotanylessalawbecausetheprovisionisputinthatindirectshapethanitwouldbeifitwereputdirectly。ButIpresumeIhavesaidenoughtodrawattentiontothispoint，andIpassitbyalso。

AnotheroneofthepointsthatJudgeDouglasmakesuponTrumbull，andatverygreatlength，is，thatTrumbull，whilethebillwaspending，saidinaspeechintheSenatethathesupposedtheconstitutiontobemadewouldhavetobesubmittedtothepeople。Heasks，ifTrumbullthoughtsothen，whatgroundisthereforanybodythinkingotherwisenow？Fellow—citizens，thismuchmaybesaidinreply：ThatbillhadbeeninthehandsofapartytowhichTrumbulldidnotbelong。IthadbeeninthehandsofthecommitteeattheheadofwhichJudgeDouglasstood。TrumbullperhapshadaprintedcopyoftheoriginalToomb’sbill。IhavenottheevidenceonthatpointexceptasortofinferenceIdrawfromthegeneralcourseofbusinessthere。Whatalterations，orwhatprovisionsinthewayofaltering，weregoingonincommittee，Trumbullhadnomeansofknowing，untilthealteredbillwasreportedback。Soonafterwards，whenitwasreportedback，therewasadiscussionoverit，andperhapsTrumbullinreadingithastilyinthealteredformdidnotperceiveallthebearingsofthealterations。Hewashastilyborneintothedebate，anditdoesnotfollowthatbecausetherewassomethinginitTrumbulldidnotperceive，thatsomethingdidnotexist。Morethanthis，isittruethatwhatTrumbulldidcanhaveanyeffectonwhatDouglasdid？SupposeTrumbullhadbeenintheplotwiththeseothermen，wouldthatletDouglasoutofit？WoulditexonerateDouglasthatTrumbulldidn’tthenperceivehewasintheplot？Healsoasksthequestion：Whydidn’tTrumbullproposetoamendthebill，ifhethoughtitneededanyamendment？Why，IbelievethateverythingJudgeTrumbullhadproposed，particularlyinconnectionwiththisquestionofKansasandNebraska，sincehehadbeenontheflooroftheSenate，hadbeenpromptlyvoteddownbyJudgeDouglasandhisfriends。Hehadnopromisethatanamendmentofferedbyhimtoanythingonthissubjectwouldreceivetheslightestconsideration。

JudgeTrumbulldidbringtothenoticeoftheSenateatthattimethefactthattherewasnoprovisionforsubmittingtheconstitutionabouttobemadeforthepeopleofKansastoavoteofthepeople。I

believeImayventuretosaythatJudgeDouglasmadesomereplytothisspeechofJudgeTrumbull’s，buthenevernoticedthatpartofitatall。Andsothethingpassedby。Ithink，then，thefactthatJudgeTrumbullofferednoamendmentdoesnotthrowmuchblameuponhim；andifitdid，itdoesnotreachthequestionoffactastowhatJudgeDouglaswasdoing。Irepeat，thatifTrumbullhadhimselfbeenintheplot，itwouldnotatallrelievetheotherswhowereinitfromblame。IfIshouldbeindictedformurder，anduponthetrialitshouldbediscoveredthatIhadbeenimplicatedinthatmurder，butthattheprosecutingwitnesswasguiltytoo，thatwouldnotatalltouchthequestionofmycrime。Itwouldbenorelieftomyneckthattheydiscoveredthisothermanwhochargedthecrimeuponmetobeguiltytoo。

AnotheroneofthepointsJudgeDouglasmakesuponJudgeTrumbullis，thatwhenhespokeinChicagohemadehischargetorestuponthefactthatthebillhadtheprovisioninitforsubmittingtheconstitutiontoavoteofthepeoplewhenitwentintohisJudgeDouglas’s)hands，thatitwasmissingwhenhereportedittotheSenate，andthatinapublicspeechhehadsubsequentlysaidthealterationsinthebillweremadewhileitwasincommittee，andthattheyweremadeinconsultationbetweenhim(JudgeDouglas)andToomb’s。AndJudgeDouglasgoesontocommentuponthefactofTrumbull’sadducinginhisAltonspeechthepropositionthatthebillnotonlycamebackwiththatpropositionstrickenout，butwithanotherclauseandanotherprovisioninit，sayingthat"untilthecompleteexecutionofthisActthereshallbenoelectioninsaidTerritory，"——which，Trumbullargued，wasnotonlytakingtheprovisionforsubmittingtoavoteofthepeopleoutofthebill，butwasaddinganaffirmativeone，inthatitpreventedthepeoplefromexercisingtherightunderabillthatwasmerelysilentonthequestion。Now，inregardtowhathesays，thatTrumbullshiftstheissue，thatheshiftshisground，——andIbelieveheusesthetermthat，"itbeingprovenfalse，hehaschangedground，"Icalluponallofyou，whenyoucometoexaminethatportionofTrumbull’sspeech(foritwillmakeapartofmine)，toexaminewhetherTrumbullhasshiftedhisgroundornot。Isayhedidnotshifthisground，butthathebroughtforwardhisoriginalchargeandtheevidencetosustainityetmorefully，butpreciselyasheoriginallymadeit。Then，inadditionthereto，hebroughtinanewpieceofevidence。Heshiftednoground。Hebroughtnonewpieceofevidenceinconsistentwithhisformertestimony；buthebroughtanewpiece，tending，ashethought，andasIthink，toprovehisproposition。Toillustrate：Amanbringsanaccusationagainstanother，andontrialthemanmakingthechargeintroducesAandBtoprovetheaccusation。Atasecondtrialheintroducesthesamewitnesses，whotellthesamestoryasbefore，andathirdwitness，whotellsthesamething，andinadditiongivesfurthertestimonycorroborativeofthecharge。SowithTrumbull。

Therewasnoshiftingofground，norinconsistencyoftestimonybetweenthenewpieceofevidenceandwhatheoriginallyintroduced。

ButJudgeDouglassaysthathehimselfmovedtostrikeoutthatlastprovisionofthebill，andthatonhismotionitwasstrickenoutandasubstituteinserted。ThatIpresumeisthetruth。IpresumeitistruethatthatlastpropositionwasstrickenoutbyJudgeDouglas。

Trumbullhasnotsaiditwasnot；Trumbullhashimselfsaidthatitwassostrickenout。Hesays："IamnowspeakingofthebillasJudgeDouglasreporteditback。ItwasamendedsomewhatintheSenatebeforeitpassed，butIamspeakingofitashebroughtitback。"Now，whenJudgeDouglasparadesthefactthattheprovisionwasstrickenoutofthebillwhenitcameback，heassertsnothingcontrarytowhatTrumbullalleges。Trumbullhasonlysaidthatheoriginallyputitin，notthathedidnotstrikeitout。Trumbullsaysitwasnotinthebillwhenitwenttothecommittee。Whenitcamebackitwasin，andJudgeDouglassaidthealterationsweremadebyhiminconsultationwithToomb’s。Trumbullalleges，therefore，ashisconclusion，thatJudgeDouglasputitin。Then，ifDouglaswantstocontradictTrumbullandcallhimaliar，lethimsayhedidnotputitin，andnotthathedidn’ttakeitoutagain。Itissaidthatabearissometimeshardenoughpushedtodropacub；andsoI

presumeitwasinthiscase。IpresumethetruthisthatDouglasputitin，andafterwardtookitout。That，Itakeit，isthetruthaboutit。JudgeTrumbullsaysonething，Douglassaysanotherthing，andthetwodon’tcontradictoneanotheratall。Thequestionis，whatdidheputitinfor？Inthefirstplace，whatdidhetaketheotherprovisionoutofthebillfor，——theprovisionwhichTrumbullarguedwasnecessaryforsubmittingtheconstitutiontoavoteofthepeople？Whatdidhetakethatoutfor；and，havingtakenitout，whatdidheputthisinfor？IsaythatintherunofthingsitisnotunlikelyforcesconspiretorenderitvastlyexpedientforJudgeDouglastotakethatlatterclauseoutagain。ThequestionthatTrumbullhasmadeisthatJudgeDouglasputitin；andhedon’tmeetTrumbullatallunlesshedeniesthat。

IntheclauseofJudgeDouglas’sspeechuponthissubjectheusesthislanguagetowardJudgeTrumbull。Hesays：

"Heforgeshisevidencefrombeginningtoend；andbyfalsifyingtherecord，heendeavorstobolsteruphisfalsecharge。"

Well，thatisaprettyseriousstatement——Trumbullforgeshisevidencefrombeginningtoend。Now，uponmyownauthorityIsaythatitisnottrue。Whatisaforgery？ConsidertheevidencethatTrumbullhasbroughtforward。Whenyoucometoreadthespeech，asyouwillbeableto，examinewhethertheevidenceisaforgeryfrombeginningtoend。Hehadthebillordocumentinhishandlikethat[holdingupapaper]。HesaysthatisacopyoftheToomb’sbill，——

theamendmentofferedbyToomb’s。HesaysthatisacopyofthebillasitwasintroducedandwentintoJudgeDouglas’shands。Now，doesJudgeDouglassaythatisaforgery？ThatisonethingTrumbullbroughtforward。JudgeDouglassaysheforgeditfrombeginningtoend！Thatisthe"beginning，"wewillsay。DoesDouglassaythatisaforgery？Lethimsayitto—day，andwewillhaveasubsequentexaminationuponthissubject。Trumbullthenholdsupanotherdocumentlikethis，andsaysthatisanexactcopyofthebillasitcamebackintheamendedformoutofJudgeDouglas’shands。DoesJudgeDouglassaythatisaforgery？Doeshesayitinhisgeneralsweepingcharge？Doeshesaysonow？Ifhedoesnot，thentakethisToomb’sbillandthebillintheamendedform，anditonlyneedstocomparethemtoseethattheprovisionisintheoneandnotintheother；itleavestheinferenceinevitablethatitwastakenout。

But，whileIamdealingwiththisquestion，letusseewhatTrumbull’sotherevidenceis。OneotherpieceofevidenceIwillread。TrumbullsaysthereareinthisoriginalToomb’sbillthesewords：

"ThatthefollowingpropositionsbeandthesameareherebyofferedtothesaidConventionofthepeopleofKansas，whenformed，fortheirfreeacceptanceorrejection；which，ifacceptedbytheConventionandratifiedbythepeopleattheelectionfortheadoptionoftheconstitution，shallbeobligatoryupontheUnitedStatesandthesaidStateofKansas。"

Now，ifitissaidthatthisisaforgery，wewillopenthepaperhereandseewhetheritisornot。Again，Trumbullsays，ashegoesalong，thatMr。BiglermadethefollowingstatementinhisplaceintheSenate，December9，1857：

"Iwaspresentwhenthatsubjectwasdiscussedbysenatorsbeforethebillwasintroduced，andthequestionwasraisedanddiscussed，whethertheconstitution，whenformed，shouldbesubmittedtoavoteofthepeople。Itwasheldbythosemostintelligentonthesubjectthat，inviewofallthedifficultiessurroundingthatTerritory，thedangerofanyexperimentatthattimeofapopularvote，itwouldbebetterthereshouldbenosuchprovisionintheToomb’sbill；anditwasmyunderstanding，inalltheintercourseIhad，thattheConventionwouldmakeaconstitution，andsendithere，withoutsubmittingittothepopularvote。"

ThenTrumbullfollowson：

"Inspeakingofthismeetingagainonthe21stDecember，1857

[CongressionalGlobe，samevol。，page113]，SenatorBiglersaid：

"’Nothingwasfurtherfrommymindthantoalludetoanysocialorconfidentialinterview。Themeetingwasnotofthatcharacter。

Indeed，itwassemi—official，andcalledtopromotethepublicgood。

MyrecollectionwasclearthatIlefttheconferenceundertheimpressionthatithadbeendeemedbesttoadoptmeasurestoadmitKansasasaStatethroughtheagencyofonepopularelection，andthatfordelegatestothisConvention。ThisimpressionwasstrongerbecauseIthoughtthespiritofthebillinfringeduponthedoctrineofnon—intervention，towhichIhadgreataversion；butwiththehopeofaccomplishingagreatgood，andasnomovementhadbeenmadeinthatdirectionintheTerritory，Iwaivedthisobjection，andconcludedtosupportthemeasure。Ihaveafewitemsoftestimonyastothecorrectnessoftheseimpressions，andwiththeirsubmissionI

shallbecontent。IhavebeforemethebillreportedbythesenatorfromIllinoisonthe7thofMarch，1856，providingfortheadmissionofKansasasaState，thethirdsectionofwhichreadsasfollows：

"Thatthefollowingpropositionsbe，andthesameareherebyofferedtothesaidConventionofthepeopleofKansas，whenformed，fortheirfreeacceptanceorrejection；which，ifacceptedbytheConventionandratifiedbythepeopleattheelectionfortheadoptionoftheconstitution，shallbeobligatoryupontheUnitedStatesandthesaidStateofKansas。"